Station Exchange White Paper

[Dashal]

Yeah I dont care too much either way. I bought something 4 years ago in EQ1. Some mid level weapon that I cant even remember what it was now. I was level 30 something, cost me like 8 bucks.

I remember the seller was the nicest guy. Thanked me, buffed me up, threw in some other minor items.

It blows when you have 800 farm bots camping stuff 24/7. Outside of that... whatever.

[Zarcath]

No response for Creed's completely valid concern?

[Badass]

Originally Posted by Smed

We have a solid legal argument about our ownership of the IP so that didn't factor into our thinking at all.

Smed

If my 14 year old brother pays $15 a month for two years and gets his character to lvl 70 with epic gear and lots of in game cash, how can justify banning his account for attempting to sell it? We know its value and we know that you yourself have created a RMT market where that exact same virtual property sold last week for $500. A market that you created for profit. If you deny his ability to sell his character you are violating his rights. There would be no lvl 70 character named Max with epic gear and lots of cash if it wasnt for the countless hours my brother put in creating the character.

Are you saying that you alone own all of the IP? Or are you saying that you control the IP and recognize limited rights of ownership in the player? What would be your argument against my brother should he seek to protect his right to sell his character or items?

[Pinski]

Originally Posted by Badass

If my 14 year old brother pays $15 a month for two years and gets his character to lvl 70 with epic gear and lots of in game cash, how can justify banning his account for attempting to sell it? We know its value and we know that you yourself have created a RMT market where that exact same virtual property sold last week for $500. A market that you created for profit. If you deny his ability to sell his character you are violating his rights. There would be no lvl 70 character named Max with epic gear and lots of cash if it wasnt for the countless hours my brother put in creating the character.

Are you saying that you alone own all of the IP? Or are you saying that you control the IP and recognize limited rights of ownership in the player? What would be your argument against my brother should he seek to protect his right to sell his character or items?

If he wants to sell it, then he can just transfer it to the Exchange server for free and sell it. There is nobody holding him back from transfering there.

[Gieve]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there's a HUGE difference in player motivation on purchasing of gold/items when it's not allowed. When it isnt allowed, a player may purchase gold/items because it will give them an advantage over other players. They may have more time/whatever than him, or he just may want to get ahead. MMO's are VERY competative, even in EQ on non PVP servers people would sit around banks showing off their lootz. PVP makes it even more significant. A well geared char could also do a lot more and with less people.

When it's allowed, this advantage gap gets much narrower. Since anyone can buy items, people are much less motivated to buy items since it's no longer going to give them as much an advantage.

My 2centz

[Dildo Faggins]

Honestly, this hsould be approached as an optional thing. Kinda like FV server with eq. Why must all servers be a certain way? Allow players a choice.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Shodai

I respect your outlook, but I think it is too narrowly focused. I tried to make it clear in my post that this is something that would have implications long term, not short. I absolutely believe that people see these types of practices, and while some (see: small minority) may embrace them, the majority are going to deplore them. If this effects your popular opinion in the MMO community, long-term you will see red. Will you make up potential lost revenue through these new revenue streams? Maybe. But you will be backing yourself into an nonsustaining niche in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree!

I think we(generic mmo community) hated the selling/buying back in Ultima/EQ whatever "first gen" game you played, because things were different then.

I think we must look at all of it, the cockblocking for raids, the l33t attitude, the cutthroat wrath, all of it. Back then, purchasing something was considered a "bitch move". You didn't earn it, why? Because you couldn't get in a "real guild" etc.

Things have changed, just like most of us can't go back to EQ and get that magic back, other aspects of the games change as well. It's time to face it. Are the Station Exchange Servers the right approach? I honestly don't know, I am neither informed enough or in the position to understand all of information and make a decision. But what I DO know is what I've seen.

Shadowbane, hard core PvP...yes I know it had bugs and crashes and shit in a box beyond most others. But I also know(think I know) that no true hardcore style pvp game will ever make it(without some advances in ideas/technology). Why? Because no one wants to loose a character they are attached to, frustration from so many various aspects of the game, the one guild rules all syndrom etc.. Im sure one day it will be done and someone will quote me, but until major changes occur, there must be rules to all future pvp games to allow for fun play. Read that as fun for ALL, not the one jackass ruining everyone's day.

Wow and gold buying. Many people do it, plain fact. We don't exactly know the break down of age/time spent in game(casual vs hardcore), in game level, in game status(raid guild family guild etc). So any guess work is exactly that. But there were many discussions on this board and probably thousands of others about the topic. And while opinions do vary, it's clear that it happens frequently by various syles of player. Guess what, people arn't quitting WoW in droves. And guess what else, I would put all the money I could gather to place a bet that if WoW openned up Exchange Servers similiar to SOE, no significant % of the population would leave the game in protest. Fuck, I would even presume to think those Blizzard Exchange servers would be more popular than ever. But this is all my uneducated guesswork, so whatever.

Bottom line is shit has changed, buying/selling WILL happen. So I'll regurgate(sp?) the typical answers.

1.) Allow it so you can monitor it, people don't get in trouble, it's safer for buyer and seller etc.
2.) Spend money/time/resources to combat it as much as you can without causing yourself or the game harm
3.) Let it happen and don't give a shit
4.) Try as hard as you can to begin designing future games around the fact that it exists, and therefore make it useless, and as far as I know, no one has done this yet. Not even the best "armchair" designers around this board.

I don't believe they are hurting long term retention or loyalty, especially if they segregate the servers and leave the option to play in the fashion you prefer.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Smed

In any event, we needed to try something. This is about how we steer the future of MMOs

Then you should have tried something about what actually matters.

[Badass]

Originally Posted by Pinski

If he wants to sell it, then he can just transfer it to the Exchange server for free and sell it. There is nobody holding him back from transfering there.

In that case, SOE can probably avoid any problems. SOE is far ahead of everyone else on this issue (except Second Life etc) they recognize they are missing out on profits and that they may be negatively effected if they litigate the issue. (despite what Smed says, I think he would rather avoid serious litigation on the issue of virtual property rights ) Its a win/win for them to try something like the exchange.

It is a good start and the best thing that the industry can do imo is to give players rights to sell/transfer their characters and items. The possibilities are limitless. Players perceptions on the issue are formed by how the question is asked. If you ask us if we like gold farmers we will all say no. If you ask us if we feel we have any rights in our characters and feel we should be able to sell them if someone offers us $1000 we would say yes.

I hope that SOE and others will design games from now on that give their players a tangible sense of their rights and ownership of their character and the property they create in the game. In the end, it will make better games, with more players and make those players experience more fulfilling.

[Trebla]

Originally Posted by Kolle

Oh...and as for the idea that making something illegal automatically means activity increases...that simply is not true. Making pot legal doesn't mean thousands or millions of people will suddenly start smoking pot. Making buying/selling on all servers legal doesn't mean tons more people will start doing it.

Pure balls. Legalizing something desirable certainly does make more people participate in it. How many people habitually drive over 120 mph on the Interstate? How many would if there were no Speed Limits?

I knew at least a dozen people in college who did not do drugs (pot included) simply because the potential ramifications to their future (not just immediate punishment) if they should happen to be so unfortunate to get caught. At least some of these people were ones who quit after making the realization and would have gone back in an instant. Where the hell do you get off claiming legalizing something absolutely won't increase it's use?

Originally Posted by Smed

One thing I can absolutely tell you.. in no way are we paying lip service to fighting farmers.

You know the easy solution... punish the buyers as well as the sellers. And publicize it. It takes two parties to make a Black Market exchange.

[Shodai]

Originally Posted by rangoth

I don't believe they are hurting long term retention or loyalty, especially if they segregate the servers and leave the option to play in the fashion you prefer.

Well, I am going to go ahead and assume that either Sony is going to launch a product based around real currency or further integrate this model into current products. Leaving it on segregated servers, as you saw, generated a few drops in the pan..but it wasn't sensational by any means. I can't in my wildest dreams see Smed integrating this stuff into all of the EQ2/Vanguard servers, but I bet we see a release in the future that embraces it. Interestingly, if this does happen it will be essentially creating a new genre, and I question whether models and assumptions from the traditional MMO sector will transfer over. I am going to go ahead and bet that, if such a game is released, it will tank (ie: not generate a laudable $$ gross) and generate innumerable amounts of forum hate across the intarWeb. I see the potential, don't get me wrong, but unless the execution is perfect, the game is incredibly compelling, and the model fits...well...I guess well see.

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by Creediki

To me the main problem with the game company being a party to secondary transactions is that it is a serious conflict-of-interest.

Dead on. Exactly what I was thinking.

If the company wants more money from the game (and what company doesn't?), they simply introduce incentive for players to use the Exchange.

[Kolle]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Dead on. Exactly what I was thinking.

If the company wants more money from the game (and what company doesn't?), they simply introduce incentive for players to use the Exchange.

They could easily do that now.


It would be easier for them to rip people off doing this while having this market be against the rules actually. It would be harder for them to gouge people with it being legal.

[Gallenite]

Originally Posted by Trebla

You know the easy solution... punish the buyers as well as the sellers. And publicize it. It takes two parties to make a Black Market exchange.

Yep, already being done. Buying plat on non-SE is most definitely a gamble.

We generally start out by targetting farmers. We clean up and ban handoff accounts and sellers in the process*, and then generally take action as well on the people who bought from them.

- Scott


[*] Note to farmers: Yes, we have tools that trace through all 27 of the handoffs you're doing, so you're just annoying yourselves for no real reason. But if you want to keep paying for all those accounts until they get banned, hey, thanks.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by Shodai

Well, I am going to go ahead and assume that either Sony is going to launch a product based around real currency or further integrate this model into current products. Leaving it on segregated servers, as you saw, generated a few drops in the pan..but it wasn't sensational by any means. I can't in my wildest dreams see Smed integrating this stuff into all of the EQ2/Vanguard servers, but I bet we see a release in the future that embraces it. Interestingly, if this does happen it will be essentially creating a new genre, and I question whether models and assumptions from the traditional MMO sector will transfer over. I am going to go ahead and bet that, if such a game is released, it will tank (ie: not generate a laudable $$ gross) and generate innumerable amounts of forum hate across the intarWeb. I see the potential, don't get me wrong, but unless the execution is perfect, the game is incredibly compelling, and the model fits...well...I guess well see.

Perhaps, I think what they made, and the transaction amounts(the real number to look at) were fairly high considering the server population and EQ2's population as a whole. Should they choose to change their fees/method of revenue at all, their profit will rise or fall accordingly.

For comedy take the same ratio and move it to WoW, it's a cashbox for being a mediating of something that is already occuring, in locations that are segregated from the people who are not fond of such activity.