VG sales numbers

[Morderick]

Originally Posted by The Hiram Key

...but just how fucking dumb do you think the average poster is on this forum ?

Hopefully much less than you.

[Dashal]

I think we all can agree there is at least a basic set of skills involved in MMOs. Yeah you need time too but every day i play Vanguard I'm reminded of the fact that you need to not be retarded and have some idea of what's going on.

I saw a guy get killed by a fucking book no less than 10 times the other day because he couldnt spell the answer it wanted in the quest but kept repeating his mistake. It was comical but I mean, come on. How about captain cant assist breaking mez? Not that uhh, I havent done that myself =P but I grouped with a druid last week who didnt know what assist was, much less why it was needed. Had to explain what it was, and he still broke it 3 more times. He was my level so he must have put in some time, yet he sucked.

Meanwhile I play a lot with people who are better players than me so they probably think I'm retarded half the time It's all relative.

[Kiroy]

Originally Posted by kedwyn

More skill? I wouldn't say that. Entirely different skill? I'd agree.

Gaming is gaming. It takes heaps more general gaming skills to excell at an FPS/RTS then a mmog. The learning curve is so much more extreme.

[Kildace]

I've got a level 13 cleric on VG. On my WoW priest at level 15 I only used 3 spells while soloing: Shield, SW:P and Smite, sometimes topped by a heal. On VG when I solo an even con I use 2 DD melee attacks + 1 that helps me replenish my mana, 1 DD spell and my HoT. It's not *that* much harder but in a tight situation I feel that there are a few tools that allow a good player to survive where a bad player would have died, even at such a low level. I can maximize my energy / mana conservation by either rooting the mob and nuking him, or straight up meleeing him depending on if I'm short on mana or not, when I'm taking on two mobs I can burn the first one and then kill the second one slowly relying on my +mana melee attack to allow me to keep my HoT up while I kill the mob etc ..
This, imo, is skill, and it's something that I never found in WoW at such a low level.

[Lhon]

Originally Posted by Rune

Does retention mean forever, one month, two months, a year?

I define it as paying for at least one month's subscription beyond the free month. So basically the rate at which box sales convert into paid subscriptions is the retention rate. Then there's a second number, that we could call churn, which is the rate at which paid subscribers cancel.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Kiroy

Gaming is gaming. It takes heaps more general gaming skills to excell at an FPS/RTS then a mmog. The learning curve is so much more extreme.

I agree with kedwyn. Anyone can play an FPS/RTS or an MMO. It takes skill to be actually good at the FPS/RTS or MMO and the skills are somewhat different -- you can be a good FPS player and a bad MMO player and vice-versa.

I really don't see why anyone on an MMO forum would argue that MMOs do not require skill to play well. Anyone who has played should know that there is a significant difference between a good Psi/Enchanter and a bad one. Between a good tank and a bad one. Between a good rogue and a bad one. Etc.

Even if I were to agree with your statement that FPS/RTS requires "general gaming skills" (which I don't and I'm not even sure what that means) look at what it takes to be good at an MMO - social skills to interact successfully with your guildmates, management skills to actually manage the guild/raid (if you're an officer/GM), math if you want to theorycraft, basic economic skills (sell high, buy low) for your AH bot, etc.

[Chaotic]

I suppose skill is a relative term.

I'd like to think I know how to "Act quickly" giving changes in situations.

For example, if a fight turns sour instead of sitting there like a re re I'll snare and fear, and begin a fear kite.

If I accident pull two, I'll do the same to distract one, burn my harm touch (word of athen or something) on the primary, my two refresh powerful melee attacks refear, finish, then go after the second one.

In a group situation I know how get aggro on everything around me. I know to click those little boxes that say whats around me and spam my terror spells while maintaining primary aggro on my assist.

And most of all, I know how to spell.


You don't know how many people think auto attack is the way to go.

In VG's defense, most people i've grouped with have been of a much better caliber then in other mmorpgs besides eq at the 60+ game.

[Mkopec1]

Any retard that tries to tell you there is no skill involved in playing a mmorpg needs to be hit up side the cranium with a shovel.

Any class in any of these games is presented with what? 20+ skills to be used in any combination, and with 5 diffrent people using their skills in coordination, in order to win? And some assclown is gonna come here and spew that it takes not fucking skill to play? Because its not twitch?

Chess takes fucking oodles of skill to play and i could do one move a month. and twitch does not even come into the discussion.

A woodworker is skilled in using powertools and carving shit out of wood, and again he dies not use twitch skills.

Im not saying that these games are rocket science, but come on, do some of you really believe that they take no skill at all?

[Camerous]

The people who says MMOs take no skills are the ones that you kick from those PUG groups cause they suck so bad. They are the ones you kick out of your guild after their trail period cause they are too stupid to follow basic instructions and bring absolutely nothing worth while to your guild.

[Gaereth]

Is it skill or is it just learned responses from doing things countless times?? I quess the better question is - Is the definition of skill in these games the ability to learn how to do something by repeating it countless times??

Skill might relate to how quickly you learn how to do said things (although I would tend to go with intelligence there) but in the end its about spending the time to learn what to do and what not to do. Its learning which button to push when X happens and which button to push when Y happens. That is becoming familiar with your character and all you need to do that is time playing that character in those situations. I guess in the end that is skill, but I don't think it is something out of reach of 99.9% of the players.

Perhaps what we are talking about is paying attention and actually doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done?? Perhaps skill isn't the issue as much as the ability to actually pay attention to what is going on around you and reacting with your learned responses. I know that 9 times out of 10 it seems problems arise more from lack of attention than lack of skill in these games.

Would be fair to say that a familiarity with the character your playing and the ability to pay attention is the definition of skilled in these games??

I know we had this question come up last night...how can a person in full Dreadnaught not understand CC, pulling, and various other group related functions??? He was breaking ice sculptures, sheep, sleep, and doing all sorts of extremely basic grouping things very poorly. By peoples definitions on this board that person should have been highly skilled due to fact they are wearing said Dreadnaught which proves they were on the cutting edge which takes a lot of skill.

Maybe he was just an idiot...but then how was he wearing full Dread?? Idiots can't make it in raids. hmmm....how confusing. I guess he must have just been an awesomely skilled player playing badly just that once....well, except for he has worked himself onto the 'watch out for groups with this guy' list due to his poor performance on many occasions.

Maybe he is just an anomoly...because the guilds in Naxx were all 100% highly skilled people that you could fill 5 man after 5 man with and know they would all play at that highly skilled level...right??

-shrug- I remember all the conversations about the dropping from 40 to 25 man raids and how it was going to be A team and B team, or that peopel were so glad they were going to get rid of the dead weight.

Why would you have an A team and a B team or dead weight if playing at the end game took so much skill?? Wouldn't they all be awesome??

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

Would be fair to say that a familiarity with the character your playing and the ability to pay attention is the definition of skilled in these games??

I think that's fair. "Skill" in an MMO is defined as being able to percieve what is occuring, knowing what to do when it occurs, and doing it. This is all gained by simply investing enough time in the game to practice it and by having the reflexes to act when you need to.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I think that's fair. "Skill" in an MMO is defined as being able to percieve what is occuring, knowing what to do when it occurs, and doing it. This is all gained by simply investing enough time in the game to practice it and by having the reflexes to act when you need to.

This is a great description. again, not rocket science skillz, but definitely skill to do the above.

To me what sets good skilled players apart from bad ones is the reaction to shit going wrong. Using all his tools that is available to him/her to come out ontop, and if you still lose, you know you did everything in your power to win.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I think that's fair. "Skill" in an MMO is defined as being able to percieve what is occuring, knowing what to do when it occurs, and doing it. This is all gained by simply investing enough time in the game to practice it and by having the reflexes to act when you need to.

That's pretty much how any skill in any area is defined. Skill as a surgeon is gained by performing countless operations. As a lawyer by writing a zillion briefs. Of course you've got to be able to learn from the practice...

The next step up in skill is figuring out how to use the abilities you've been given to do things that were unintended.

AFAIK, kiting was not an intended mechanic originally. Someone or a couple of someones figured out early on that hey -- if you snared and dotted, and re-snared and re-dotted and even nuked occasionally you could kill a mob that you could not kill through ordinary head on engagment.

Then of course there is the skill of figuring out a new raid encounter if you're a leading edge guild.

[Twobit Whore]

I'm sure the millions of lawyers and surgeons out there appreciate the trivializing of their profession by comparing it to playing an MMO.

Yes, everything can be broken down to basics, but the scope of law or medicine dwarfs the scope of video game playing the same way the universe dwarfs a grain of sand.

They just aren't even comparable.

[Malakie Torsade]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

Perhaps what we are talking about is paying attention and actually doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done?? Perhaps skill isn't the issue as much as the ability to actually pay attention to what is going on around you and reacting with your learned responses. I know that 9 times out of 10 it seems problems arise more from lack of attention than lack of skill in these games.

I agree with this, but would expand it slightly to include knowing what tools you have using them properly.

How about this then... playing MMOs does take some skill as it is entirely possible to have players of every class who are just flat out better than most others. However, to the original point, I have never played an MMO I would consider (overall) challenging. EQ was time intensive, but not hard. Simply tacking on additional time to complete something doesn't make it a challenge. You could quadruple WoW's XP requirements, add on XP loss on death and it wouldn't suddenly become a difficult game.

Originally Posted by tad10

you can be a good FPS player and a bad MMO player and vice-versa.

I'd have a hard time believing that a very good FPS player would suck at an MMO. I'm sure there is a case or 2 of it, but not being able to make the transition "down" would be rare I'd imagine.

Kind of on that same topic, my FPS skills suffer now that I've played MMOs for so long. My reaction times are slower, my accuracy is off, etc. When I first started playing them again, I felt like I was made out of tar. Were I to make the opposite transition, I think my biggest obstacle would just be remembering what I assigned all my hot keys to.