VG sales numbers

[RunningDog]

Originally Posted by vynde

what is wrong with a challenge? if i didnt like challenges i would still be on my paladin spamming the flash of light key to get ph4t l3wtz.

yeah i dont think too many people like the idea of going from ez mode WoW to vg.

Whenever I see comments about challenge in games I think of this clip:

YouTube - Ikaruga chapter 3 both players (hands seen on video)

As for Vanguard, the question isn't whether it is challenging or not, it's whether you find it fun. The sales figures just reflect how many people share your taste.

[Atoyota]

Originally Posted by Bongk

You listed a pile of shit, most of that are not viable options. Honestly it is VG, EQ2, WoW or quit for the msot part. And WoW and EQ2 are out for me.

Just curious and off topic (sorry) why is DOAC dead in the water?
Never played it, just curious...


Secondly (on topic) Your three games are (IMO) virtually the same, with just a few twists and shakes.

Vanguard is more complete in what it offers, but not polished and likely will take it at least 6 more months before it's solved all it's issues. By then, because it's so expansive, will server populations be enough to make LFG easy? Or will you need a guild to get through the tougher quests?

You'l prolly want to flame me for the comment, but I can list many similarities. Sure there are differences also, but the core mechanic of quest level grind is true in all three. (same old same old)

Will say diplomacy has potential though. Depends where they take it and how much dynamic content it can add that can make it more of a world and less of a game. Remains to be seen, and I feel it's the only real hope of bringing Vanguard back to the level of notice it had last E3.

Anyways... I've decided against the game. Just not interested in stuff I've done before in other games. Not willing to wait on it either.

[Faltigoth]

I think the things holding Vanguard sales back are, quite honestly, the stout sstem requirements to run it well. If everyone was packing a GeForce 8800 GTX or whatever the hell with superprocessors and raptor hard drives and shitloads of good ram, then it would be different. But word of mouth is a powerful thing (witness: WoW) and word of mouth on VG is that unless you have Deep Blue at home, the game will look and run like smacked ass. Those types of systems are still pretty expensive.

Hell, I was going to stay away from it myself until someone here was cool enough to give me a buddy key so I could test it on my gimp system and I discovered that, holy crap, it runs decent enough to be playable even on a 3 year old system. It ain't as pretty as it could be but pretty enough.

Couple that with the fact that half or more (a shitload more if you don't count lineage or lineage 2) of the MMO players in existence are still in Outland with very little of that content beaten yet, and you have VG's sales numbers - maybe not quite what they would be if they released in march or april when people are bored of tBC and looking for something else, but not what I would call abject failure either.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by Atoyota

Just curious and off topic (sorry) why is DOAC dead in the water?
Never played it, just curious

Currently defending the realms:
North America 4,820

[vynde]

Originally Posted by Faltigoth

I discovered that, holy crap, it runs decent enough to be playable even on a 3 year old system.

would you mind telling me your fps and specs? i have a 3 year old system too

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by vynde

would you mind telling me your fps and specs? i have a 3 year old system too

I have a 3 year old system also.

Dell Inspiron, p4 3mhz, 2 gig pc4200 ram, generic 80gd IDE hard drive, no idea on speed, Nvidia 6800XT 512mb PCI-X vid card (was first dell box with PCI-X). Run at 1440 x 900 resolution.

I get 35ish fps out in the wilds and about 20ish fps in towns. Very playable. This is on Balanced Setting with shadows turned to down to 1 and environmental shaders turned pretty far down.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by vynde

what is wrong with a challenge? if i didnt like challenges i would still be on my paladin spamming the flash of light key to get ph4t l3wtz.

yeah i dont think too many people like the idea of going from ez mode WoW to vg.

Yawn. What is more challenging about VG? I guess mobs disappearing while you fight them is one of those value added, challenge-enhancing "3rd gen" features? Fighting an uphill battle with buggy code? I haven't seen anything or heard anything regarding VG that indicates the combat or encounters are any more challenging than EQ2 or WoW.

Paladin spamming flash of light... gotcha. What was the last raid you ran, MC? The days of braindead paladins spamming cleanse via decursive ended a while back.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by kohl

Yawn. What is more challenging about VG? I guess mobs disappearing while you fight them is one of those value added, challenge-enhancing "3rd gen" features? Fighting an uphill battle with buggy code? I haven't seen anything or heard anything regarding VG that indicates the combat or encounters are any more challenging than EQ2 or WoW.

Paladin spamming flash of light... gotcha. What was the last raid you ran, MC? The days of braindead paladins spamming cleanse via decursive ended a while back.

It is only more challenging than WoW in that you have to group throughout the game and not justa t max level, so it playes more like wow did after you hit lvl 60 and did the appropriate content. T

the only other issue is having to do CR or losing alot of exp but eq2 had that also.

It is not a "harder" game. I will say though that i know people who let their very young kids play WoW who got into the higher levels. I don't think most any kid under the age of 7 would get veryhigh in VG. WoW if you only did blue quests solo was a walk in the park anyone could do. But when done in instances of the appropriate level was just as hard as VG.

[vynde]

Originally Posted by kohl

Yawn. What is more challenging about VG? I guess mobs disappearing while you fight them is one of those value added, challenge-enhancing "3rd gen" features? Fighting an uphill battle with buggy code? I haven't seen anything or heard anything regarding VG that indicates the combat or encounters are any more challenging than EQ2 or WoW.

from the top of my head, the class specialization system for one. you cant just switch around all your talents for a fee, you have to carefully pick and plan.

Paladin spamming flash of light... gotcha. What was the last raid you ran, MC? The days of braindead paladins spamming cleanse via decursive ended a while back.

the last raid instance i went into was aq40 and occasionally i had to stun satura. i know that paladins CAN do more, but guess what? raid leaders are pretty much set in their ways and they'll just make paladins healbot.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Faltigoth

I think the things holding Vanguard sales back are, quite honestly, the stout sstem requirements to run it well.

This was such an enormous mistake, it can't be overstated. A buddy of mine who just tried the VG trial stated "I don't know what was worse; the shitty character/mob models or the FPS".

Why is this? Did the devs at Sigil actually think, deep down, that graphics should be a primary selling point for your product? These are people that lived through the era of 'Adventure' on the Atari 2600 and should know better. Am I saying I want to go back to 5 polygon models? No. I'm saying however that human beings have an imagination that can fill in some blanks. Graphics should be the icing on the cake; they should be what fills out a solid game, they should not be the foundation your game is built around.
This is why when I see Sigil devs quoting numbers of polygons being shuffled around or why its such a memory intensive game, I have to wonder if people aren't losing sight of what makes a game good.

[Faltigoth]

When it comes to challenge, the jury is still out I think on many of Vanguard's encounters, as they are not well known.

I wouldn't consider taking longer to level 'challenging', or having to group to do content 'challenging' either - those things just mean that shit takes longer. If a group can tear through shit like gangbusters, then where's the challenge in that?

To me, challenge is encounters that require well thought out strategy and damn near perfect coordination/participation/execution to win - stuff like pre-mod Onyxia, pre-mod Baron Geddon, Razorgore in WoW. Those encounters used to be hard as balls until UI mods and well-publicized strategies trivialized them. Shit like Vaelastrasz and Ragnaros I would place on the edge of challenging - most of the challenge of those encounters was having enough gear to survive/outdps the enemy, so they were more a function of time and farming rather than perfect execution (though, some execution was required, especially for the tanks on Vael).

Being forced to group or having a slower levelling curve isn't challenging, its requiring more time. Having a dungeon where a full group faces a variety of enemies with various abilities that require thought, effort and timely execution to defeat - even after the strategies are known? That's challenge. And I think we don't know enough about VG yet to make that call.

*edit* I should probably caveat this by saying that challenge is relative too - a bunch of cockstrong highly motivated highly skilled players from, say, EJ or FoH or DnT etc are going to have highly different opinions of challenge than players from 'The Elite Elven Defenders of Telon' or 'Mythic Knights of Old Targonor' or roleplaying guild 02.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by vynde

the last raid instance i went into was aq40 and occasionally i had to stun satura. i know that paladins CAN do more, but guess what? raid leaders are pretty much set in their ways and they'll just make paladins healbot.

Gotcha. So you had your directions spoonfed to you like a good little 40man zergling. Trust me, that doesn't work anymore in the new 5man model.

[Korbal]

Originally Posted by vynde

from the top of my head, the class specialization system for one. you cant just switch around all your talents for a fee, you have to carefully pick and plan.


the last raid instance i went into was aq40 and occasionally i had to stun satura. i know that paladins CAN do more, but guess what? raid leaders are pretty much set in their ways and they'll just make paladins healbot.

How is that in any way challenging? That just seems tedious, and it will be a detriment to the game once the first person posts the most efficient spec.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Bongk

It is only more challenging than WoW in that you have to group throughout the game and not justa t max level, so it playes more like wow did after you hit lvl 60 and did the appropriate content.

Oh I understand. So basically, they made the game more challenging by making sure that if its just you logging in - maybe your friend can't play or something - you are SOL? Wow, thats some creative challenge.

Just as an FYI - there is a lot of content in WoW that you would miss if you went 1-70 solo both in regards to quests, instances, and practical experience. My guess is that people who decided to go that route would hit max level and find themselves having to go back and learn quite a bit. Unless VG prohibits you from soloing, I don't see why people couldn't do the same in that game as well - it would probably just take longer, but the end result would be the same.

[vynde]

Originally Posted by kohl

Gotcha. So you had your directions spoonfed to you like a good little 40man zergling. Trust me, that doesn't work anymore in the new 5man model.

5 mans have always had room for off specs. i think that will change when people start going into the 25 mans. maybe even the 10-15 man dungeons. people like simplifying things when it comes to raiding so why will this change all of the sudden? maybe it'll be hectic for the healers, and maybe the dpsers will have to control their threat since warriors arent the uber tank anymore, but how different can bc be from wow?

Originally Posted by Korbal

How is that in any way challenging? That just seems tedious, and it will be a detriment to the game once the first person posts the most efficient spec.

that happens in every game, people always want to go to the "efficient" spec. however personally when i get down to it, ill just pick what i want because that uber spec might become the crappy spec from a patch (har har WoW warriors). its a challenge because there is no safety net and you do have to take risks.