Fixing wow's pvp system

[Awanka]

Originally Posted by Zorlac

Stupid question ... How the hell are you going to identify them? If you put humans to make these checks, you are insane. If you put an algorithm to make the checks, it's going to have faults that people will exploit. You can't afk out? No problem, you will "go linkdead". Wink wink! How will you judge if someone is doing something? What if a warrior is wielding a massive sword and it's being CCd or assist trained regulary because he is a menace. Is this warrior doing nothing? Or just being the center of attention? How will you determine who is worthy or not? You can't go beyond: well if he didn't do damage/healing for the last 5 min then boot. It's extremely hard if not impossible for an algorithm to determine with insane accuracy who is slacking and who's not. Besides ... who are you to judge others? Maybe that slacker in reality sucks ... he pays his 15$ a month too.

We both agree that your question is stupid, but I will answer it anyway. The algorithm will look at a person's healing, damage, damage taken, kills, deaths, etc, and come up with a determination. Now even dying and taking damage will score you some points because it at least shows that you're trying, even though you may suck mightily(which I'm sure you do). If a player doesn't measure up, than they'll incur the stiff penalties that I mentioned earlier.

Now, it is true that a player might suck so much, that they can't even manage to get out of the starting area and take a few for the team. They'll be lumped in with the rest of the slackers. They have no business stinking up the battlegrounds. Yes, as you astutely pointed out, they pay the $15 but(and this is a very important point that all WoW pussies need to learn Are you reading this Dis?) paying your $15 doesn't entitle you to everything in the game. Just because you paid $15(It's a lot I know, 3 weeks allowance for you) doesn't mean you get to fight Kel'Thuzad or go into the battlegrounds. It only entitles you to the same opportunity to make something of your character as anyone else.

I have an idea. Blizzard can create a seperate arena specifically for people who suck at pvping(such as yourself). This place will be called the kiddie pool, and it will be specifically targetted toward women and cripples to test out their abilities and learn how to pvp against other lame players until a point when they're ready to pvp with the boys.

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by Awanka

We both agree that your question is stupid, but I will answer it anyway. The algorithm will look at a person's healing, damage, damage taken, kills, deaths, etc, and come up with a determination. Now even dying and taking damage will score you some points because it at least shows that you're trying, even though you may suck mightily(which I'm sure you do). If a player doesn't measure up, than they'll incur the stiff penalties that I mentioned earlier.

Now, it is true that a player might suck so much, that they can't even manage to get out of the starting area and take a few for the team. They'll be lumped in with the rest of the slackers. They have no business stinking up the battlegrounds. Yes, as you astutely pointed out, they pay the $15 but(and this is a very important point that all WoW pussies need to learn Are you reading this Dis?) paying your $15 doesn't entitle you to everything in the game. Just because you paid $15(It's a lot I know, 3 weeks allowance for you) doesn't mean you get to fight Kel'Thuzad or go into the battlegrounds. It only entitles you to the same opportunity to make something of your character as anyone else.

I have an idea. Blizzard can create a seperate arena specifically for people who suck at pvping(such as yourself). This place will be called the kiddie pool, and it will be specifically targetted toward women and cripples to test out their abilities and learn how to pvp against other lame players until a point when they're ready to pvp with the boys.

Again, let me re-iterate what I said: Don't quit your day job. No really, don't. And thank $DEITY$ retards like you aren't in charge of game design.

PS: 15$ comment was right on the money, pun intended. There are *NO* requirements other than getting a certain level to PvP. Comparing it to killing KT is fucking retarded. Then again, that's expected from you with your string of brilliant ideas. And you know what? Dumbass Jonny like yourself can zone into Naxx and *TRY* to kill Kel'Thuzad. Just like Dumbass Jimmy like you can zone into AV and *TRY* to PvP. So your 15$ does entitle you access to a certain part of the game. It doesn't mean you will actually do good in those parts.

PPS: I see you have no clue about algorithms. When you are done with kindergarden mathematics and logic (strange word, I know), you might realize it's extremely hard if not impossible to develop an algorithm that will be used for decissions even humans might find difficult. Before throwing wild ideas in the air, how about you actually propose an algorithm to detect slacker? Oh wait ... you can't.

Dumbass!

[Roa]

Originally Posted by Awanka

We both agree that your question is stupid, but I will answer it anyway. The algorithm will look at a person's healing, damage, damage taken, kills, deaths, etc, and come up with a determination. Now even dying and taking damage will score you some points because it at least shows that you're trying, even though you may suck mightily(which I'm sure you do). If a player doesn't measure up, than they'll incur the stiff penalties that I mentioned earlier.

Hey, retard, how does this algorithm handle getting stuck on "guard stables" duty?

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by Roa

Hey, retard, how does this algorithm handle getting stuck on "guard stables" duty?

That's just the tip of the iceberg, his genius ideas can be bypassed easy.

For example, in AV, all a botter/slacker has to do is to program a simple script that does:
(1) If dead, wait rez.
(2) Walk towards Vanndar spaw point.
(3) Goto 1.

This bot is: Walking (not afk), Dying (will aggro at least enemy NPCs and die, most possibly players) thus it perfectly bypasses the "slacker detection" algorithm. It's guaranteed that at least Vanndar will kill the bot or simply horde is about to win and "slacker detection" at this point is irrelevant anyways!

Today's bot programs are damn nice, all this person needs to do is to script his bot program to randomly attack alliance in WSG/AB/AV, or follow random horde players and heal them or whatever! To make it even worse, jump down from high hills/buildings and self bandage. Bam! Healing is done, slacker detect algorithm is bypassed.

It's so laughable that some people think that with today's knowledge and technology we can easily analyse and detect patterns in human behaviour (hell, bot behaviour analysis is hard too). We just can't, WAY too many variables and conditions. Not to mention a lot of false positives that will arise.

If behavior detection algorithm was so easy to develop, we wouldn't have AFK botters leveling or in BGs leeching honor.

[Awanka]

Originally Posted by Zorlac

PS: 15$ comment was right on the money, pun intended. There are *NO* requirements other than getting a certain level to PvP. Comparing it to killing KT is fucking retarded. Then again, that's expected from you with your string of brilliant ideas. And you know what? Dumbass Jonny like yourself can zone into Naxx and *TRY* to kill Kel'Thuzad. Just like Dumbass Jimmy like you can zone into AV and *TRY* to PvP. So your 15$ does entitle you access to a certain part of the game. It doesn't mean you will actually do good in those parts.

Actually, no, a person can't just walk into Naxx and try Kel'Thuzad. There are some obstacles in the way. They're named Sapphiron etc.. A person has to display sufficient competency before they're given the privilege of trying that encounter, just like a person should exhibit some core pvp skills before they're given the privilege of entering the battlegrounds. Is this making sense to you? I know you have a hard time understanding concepts, and you did after all score a big fat 0 in analogies on the SATs. I don't want to confuse you!

Originally Posted by Zorlac

For example, in AV, all a botter/slacker has to do is to program a simple script that does:
(1) If dead, wait rez.
(2) Walk towards Vanndar spaw point.
(3) Goto 1.

This bot is: Walking (not afk), Dying (will aggro at least enemy NPCs and die, most possibly players) thus it perfectly bypasses the "slacker detection" algorithm. It's guaranteed that at least Vanndar will kill the bot or simply horde is about to win and "slacker detection" at this point is irrelevant anyways!

Today's bot programs are damn nice, all this person needs to do is to script his bot program to randomly attack alliance in WSG/AB/AV, or follow random horde players and heal them or whatever! To make it even worse, jump down from high hills/buildings and self bandage. Bam! Healing is done, slacker detect algorithm is bypassed.

Do I have to spell out everything for you? First of all, 95% of the people playing WoW, and 99.5% of the people who don't do anything in the BGs are so fucking lazy that they would never write a script like that. These people don't even make an effort to push their buttons. They're not going to setup a bot script. They're going to order a pizza, and hopefully quit the game. Second of all, at least that bot is doing something. It sounds more useful than many of the players in the BGs. Third of all, if I were in charge of the WoW battlegrounds, I would set up a few scripts of my own to detect, or even counteract people trying to exploit loopholes in my slacker detection code, and believe me, my scripts would be much smarter than you.

I must confess, I'm becoming quite enamored of my subpar battleground idea. We could call it "Zorlac's arena for disadvantaged players," and put up handicapped signs all over so people could find it easily.

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by Awanka

Do I have to spell out everything for you? First of all, 95% of the people playing WoW, and 99.5% of the people who don't do anything in the BGs are so fucking lazy that they would never write a script like that.

- Ah yes. Downloading stuff over teh intarweb is hard. You know, click 1-2 buttons, install the files and run them. Did every botter coded themselves the bot program they used? Did they? Oh and do you have any data to back up your statistics or it's just another round of bullshit?

Originally Posted by Awanka

These people don't even make an effort to push their buttons. They're not going to setup a bot script.

- You grossly underestimate free loaders and leeches. Right now they do nothing because they don't need to, just move back and forth once every 5 min to avoid afk kick. Once your super duper slack detection uber code is in place, they will move forward, jump down a hill, bandage themselves every 5 minutes and go back watching tv. Or download (I know downloading something is very complicated) a bot program and use it.

Originally Posted by Awanka

Second of all, at least that bot is doing something. It sounds more useful than many of the players in the BGs.

- Yes, bots killing wolves or NPCs in the south most cave near elite yeti are very useful. Indeed.

Originally Posted by Awanka

Third of all, if I were in charge of the WoW battlegrounds, I would set up a few scripts of my own to detect, or even counteract people trying to exploit loopholes in my slacker detection code, and believe me, my scripts would be much smarter than you.

- How about showing us a basic ideas of your script. Not just the bullshit thrown in the air and the vague idiocies like oh gosh ... find and punish slackers!. You know, numbers, values, parameters.

How you define someone who is slacking? Give us numbers a computer would understand. How many damage has to be healed to be considered non slacker. How many damage has to be done. How will it handle strategic tasks like defending a resource/tower without doing healing or damage? How will your script compensate for flag carry bodyguard? People who do quests in AV for instance? Plenty of questions you still don't have any answers for. Because you have no idea how to fix them.

So far you have only thrown retarded ideas in the air that are really vague and say nothing more than: find slackers and punish them! Duh!

You obviously have no clue in writing algorithms, everyone with a half a brain would realize the insanity in coding something as a slacker detection in WoW BGs. You are too fucking dumb to realize the complexity of writing human behaviour detection code. Because if you could write a solid slacker detection algorithm for WoW you could probably win the Nobel prize in AI research.

Not to mention, did you ever think of the insane memory and CPU footprint something like this would have? Of course not. You do realize that good detection mechanism has to "remember" a huge number of your previous actions. This will eat up server memory faster than a fat kid a cake. Of course the CPU overhead will be huge parsing this data and processing it. Yes, let's run WoW on Cray IIIs or Blue Gene. Brilliant business plan!

If you could write a brilliant script like it, why don't you write a bot detection algorithm that has far less number of variables and parameters. I am sure you could make millions from WoW and other MMOGs.

Originally Posted by Awanka

my subpar battleground idea.

- The correct term you are looking for is "my retarded battleground slacker detection that is full of holes one could drive a Mack truck through".

[Awanka]

Originally Posted by Zorlac

- You grossly underestimate free loaders and leeches. Right now they do nothing because they don't need to, just move back and forth once every 5 min to avoid afk kick. Once your super duper slack detection uber code is in place, they will move forward, jump down a hill, bandage themselves every 5 minutes and go back watching tv. Or download (I know downloading something is very complicated) a bot program and use it.

You grossly overestimate them.

Originally Posted by Zorlac

- How about showing us a basic ideas of your script. Not just the bullshit thrown in the air and the vague idiocies like oh gosh ... find and punish slackers!. You know, numbers, values, parameters.

HAHAHA! Nice try man. You obviously have a lot more free time than I do. I'm not about to write a script I'll never use unless I'm getting paid for it.

Originally Posted by Zorlac

How you define someone who is slacking? Give us numbers a computer would understand. How many damage has to be healed to be considered non slacker. How many damage has to be done. How will it handle strategic tasks like defending a resource/tower without doing healing or damage? How will your script compensate for flag carry bodyguard? People who do quests in AV for instance? Plenty of questions you still don't have any answers for. Because you have no idea how to fix them.

So far you have only thrown retarded ideas in the air that are really vague and say nothing more than: find slackers and punish them! Duh!

You obviously have no clue in writing algorithms, everyone with a half a brain would realize the insanity in coding something as a slacker detection in WoW BGs. You are too fucking dumb to realize the complexity of writing human behaviour detection code. Because if you could write a solid slacker detection algorithm for WoW you could probably win the Nobel prize in AI research.

Not to mention, did you ever think of the insane memory and CPU footprint something like this would have? Of course not. You do realize that good detection mechanism has to "remember" a huge number of your previous actions. This will eat up server memory faster than a fat kid a cake. Of course the CPU overhead will be huge parsing this data and processing it. Yes, let's run WoW on Cray IIIs or Blue Gene. Brilliant business plan!

ROFL! You're a nut. It wouldn't be anything like that. Almost all the metrics I would use are already being recorded. dps, healing, kills, deaths, etc.. I would use a different approach for analyzing the data, and have a script run at the end of the game or when any preson leaves the battleground. You seem to be envisioning some kind of neural net AI that uses granular computing to predict human behavior. I'm not trying to mimic the human condition with computers here, I'm rooting out lazy asses in the BGs. All the tools are already in place. All it takes is a brain and will to use them(Both of which you lack)

[Zorlac]

You still didn't answer one simple question: How will you prevent resource/objective defenders, who in some case don't do jack, but have a strategic value from being flagged as slackers?

Your genius system can't. What is this "approach" and "analysis" you are talking about? Give us a criteria. Right now it's hot air and pipe dreams.

You can't rely on HKs, deaths, healing or damage as your only source of criteria to determine who is a slacker and who isn't. Because those criteria can be exploited in a lot of ways and those criteria change according to your gear level.

Do you understand? If detecting "slackers" would be easy, we wouldn't have botters today because Blizzard could have developped easy a method to flag them. I am sure in their internal studies they realised that such a system is not feasible because is either:
(1) Too complex
(2) Too easy to exploit
(3) Will give too many false positives

If you set bar at 20,000 damage. Everyone under it is flagged. Oops, what if some people zoned in later in AV and does not have the opportunity for the damage? False positive.
If you set bar at 5 deaths, slacker Jonny dies 5 times very early, and goes afk for rest of AV. Ooops. Another exploit but hey, your system gives thumbs up!
If player defends and doesn't have the opportunity to damage/heal, oooops, false positive. Someone is punished for teamwork.

Kapish? Your system won't help at all. Infact it will do the opposite. It will encourage people to soak X deaths and go afk. It will encourage exploits. It will have a metric fuckton of false positives. It will "legitimize" slacking: hey, you got 10 kills, bravo! You can go afk. 5 deaths? Awesome, you are in the "green" now, enjoy leeching honor!

[Torrid]

Zorlac, I mostly agree with you, but even you admit that code can be written to make AFKing for honor more difficult at least, and I think that is still much better than nothing at all.

I.e. Checking to see if people even left the cave, or have 0 damage done/healing after a 20 minute AV yet have all the bonus honor is extremely simple to check and gives no false positives and could probably be coded on a lunch break.

Personally I feel the best solution is to give all the players the ability to easily tell Blizzard that somebody is sabotaging the battleground. (say by targeting them and typing a slash command) Then a few employees could be tasked the job to go down the list of the most reported players and make sure they really are breaking the rules.

[Dildo Faggins]

wows pvp system is so gay that nothing can save it. Its not coding, or enforcing, or anything that anyone can do that could possibly help it. The machine behind pvp- the player base of wow- simply contains far too much idiocy for any device ever created to restrain. The only option is to enable the idiots to hurt each other, thus opening a vortex of stupidity that will collapse down upon itself. Its one of the main reasons I support death in pvp that hurt the people who die. Idiocy can only be self regulated, and is the major failing that made me drop wow pvp long, long ago. If wow were to make pvp meaningful, i might even be convinced to reactivate my account, but battlegrounds as I tried them were far from meaningful- and i found the fun of them wore off pretty quick.

[Seo]

wow pvp is unfixable by the current blizzard staff. bunch of pve loving fucks dont know shit about pvp.

hire on some staff from some of the zek players and let them go to town imo.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Seo

wow pvp is unfixable by the current blizzard staff. bunch of pve loving fucks dont know shit about pvp.

hire on some staff from some of the zek players and let them go to town imo.

I support this idea.

[Grady]

If I'm in AB, I spend most of my time defending nodes. Some games, I have less than 5 HK's if the node I'm guarding isn't attacked. Mostly, I have to kill one or two rogues or druids. However, that's a necessary function of BG's, you need people to defend nodes, otherwise, some schmuch can just walk up and cap it. Since most Horde in PUGs just leave nodes unguarded, you need people willing to do it.

You're making this far too complicated. Just institute a votekick feature like in every single FPS. Sure, it'll be abused to kick people out, but it's far better than your overly complicated alternative. Just make it so you don't get a deserter debuff unless you get /votekicked twice or three times in an hour. If you're votekicked unfairly, you hop back in the queue and get into a different game (and if you're Alliance you wait because you were stupid enough to roll the overpopulated side).