PVP wise.. which WoW class now has the upper hand? - Page 3

TheCutlery · 12-06-2006, 01:33 PM

Really the problem with warriors is twofold.

Rage normalization hurt us..not terribly, but it was a significant change. I don't have enough rage to MS off a charge anymore. The second problem is that they fucked our tree pretty badly. You basically need TM to PvP worth a shit, and going over and blowing 3 points in protection isn't my idea of a good build. So then anyone under about BWL gear who has no choice but to go MS/Fury just lost enrage, especially if they wanna pick up 2nd wind to have a fighting chance vs all the shit we gotta deal with in the root/stun category and have no counter to. And losing enrage hurts -- bad.

So everyone else gets to have their 41 talent point builds with minor sacrifices. Warriors get to get shitstomped by felguards and water elementals and 1k judgements and 350 corruptions/mindflays/SW : pain and whatever else because they're worse off than they were last patch. Everyone else got a buff, warriors took a nerf, and that offset the scales quite a bit.

Talzar · 12-06-2006, 01:53 PM

These discussions come up all the time talking about 1v1 PvP and all I have to say is: Who gives a shit!? PvP is not about 1v1. PvP is a group effort. How well you do 1v1 means about jack shit in any world PvP or battleground PvP environment.

Also remember kids: Skill > Gear > Class composition. All these stories about "I saw soandso kill 3 other people at the same time with no problem and he was only wearing blues and tier 1 armor!" No shit, some people know how to play, others suck ass, anecdotal remarks like that are pointless. PvP will remain what it's been ever since the beginning, a group effort.

And if anyone wants to remark about 2v2 arenas, guess what? The arena points from those aren't going to be close to the points you get from 5v5.

Quagg · 12-06-2006, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talzar

These discussions come up all the time talking about 1v1 PvP and all I have to say is: Who gives a shit!? PvP is not about 1v1. PvP is a group effort. How well you do 1v1 means about jack shit in any world PvP or battleground PvP environment.

Also remember kids: Skill > Gear > Class composition. All these stories about "I saw soandso kill 3 other people at the same time with no problem and he was only wearing blues and tier 1 armor!" No shit, some people know how to play, others suck ass, anecdotal remarks like that are pointless. PvP will remain what it's been ever since the beginning, a group effort.

And if anyone wants to remark about 2v2 arenas, guess what? The arena points from those aren't going to be close to the points you get from 5v5.

I agree that pvp is a group effort, however, a warrior would now need a full time heal bitch to pvp properly. And most PuG or even non pug healers are not big on healing most times.
As far as Skill > Gear > Class, thats a load of crap.
Lesser skilled Warlock will kill a higher skilled warrior 1vs1 short of the warrior having a ton of consumable.

The main problem for warrior is each class can now CC warrior in so many ways it's not even funny.

Kodylan · 12-06-2006, 02:13 PM

After playing for a bit last night on my poorly equiped paladin, I think they're quite possibly the best flag stopper in WSG now if the flag is on a druid or rogue.

Jubee · 12-06-2006, 02:39 PM

Yeah Warriors, just go farm FAPs, and switch to engineering so you can cheese grenades, and also pick up herbalism and go ahead and pvp with a flask on 24/7. If you do that, you'll go back to being a viable pvp class. Pfff

To answer the previous question, since you went on hiatus, the following nerfs have been imposed on Warriors off of the top of my head...

Weapon swing was normalized so slower weapons didn't get bigger bonuses.
Intimidating Shout caps out at 5 targets.
Sweeping Strikes -> Whirlwind only gets 1 hit from SS.
Sweeping Strikes -> Execute no longer hit the 2nd target for Execute's damage.
Rage normalized so getting better gear doesn't increase rage generation.
Enrage damage bonus reduced from 40% to 25%.
Tactical Mastery moved to Protection.
Improved Hamstring changed to a proccable root instead of flat snare % increase.

I'm sure I'm missing a few, but most of these are the important changes to pvp skills/talents. We remained viable as these nerfs happened to go hand-in-hand with zones being heavily farmed and stronger weapons made up for it. But with 2.0, our 41 point Arms talent brings our rage generation back up to what it used to be, and Fury's 41 pointer is an abomination of uselessness, especially in pvp. Meanwhile other classes are getting some very nice 41 pointers. Rage normalization hurt, but the biggest nerf was keeping us where we were at and buffing everyone else.

I'm rolling Pally in the ex-pac for the record. WTS 3/9 t3 Warrior pst.

GrobbeeTrull · 12-06-2006, 03:26 PM

That judgement of Justice is fucking cheese. /whine

Olio · 12-06-2006, 03:29 PM

What does Judgement of Justice do to players? I haven't looked into it recently.

Olio

Nehrak · 12-06-2006, 03:32 PM

Rank 2 snares now.

Edit - It says "can't move faster than normal move speed" so I guess no Sprint etc. for you!

Burning_Samurai · 12-06-2006, 03:35 PM

Cloak of shadows, sprint, bye bye.

Vitae · 12-06-2006, 04:08 PM

Yeah, those level 66 rogues are just murdering my paladin in wsg as we speak.

Phoenix · 12-06-2006, 04:14 PM

Yeah paladins are kinda screwed up atm with their talents until TBC.

Saban · 12-06-2006, 04:19 PM

Paladins have it pretty good now, thats for sure.

Took 2 years, but we finally have all 3 trees viable.

Parabola · 12-06-2006, 10:26 PM

I have no desire to pvp now whatsoever. It's just broken, no other way to describe it.

Anwyn · 12-07-2006, 12:05 AM

Since when does a fucking Paladin need a god damn snare?!

Fuck you HoJ.

ps - fuck Crusader Strike in the ass too. Fucking retarded.

Vitae · 12-07-2006, 12:18 AM

It's not really a snare. It just caps you at 100% movement speed. Paladins were entirely too easy to run away from. They're still pretty easy to get away from for most classes, but it's not as big a joke as it once was.

And for that person listing warrior nerfs - didn't hamstring used to be a 40% snare that the talent took to 50%? And now it's a 50% snare which the talent lets proc an immobilize. Not really a nerf. More a buff, in fact.

12-06-2006, 04:19 PM	#42 (permalink)
Saban Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,343 +5 Internets	Paladins have it pretty good now, thats for sure. Took 2 years, but we finally have all 3 trees viable. __________________ Saban - Paladin, Dark Iron I does things.

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12-06-2006, 01:33 PM	#31 (permalink)
TheCutlery You means that that things that he gaves you ams like little monies what ams only for beers? Join Date: May 2003 Location: MN Posts: 2,586	Really the problem with warriors is twofold. Rage normalization hurt us..not terribly, but it was a significant change. I don't have enough rage to MS off a charge anymore. The second problem is that they fucked our tree pretty badly. You basically need TM to PvP worth a shit, and going over and blowing 3 points in protection isn't my idea of a good build. So then anyone under about BWL gear who has no choice but to go MS/Fury just lost enrage, especially if they wanna pick up 2nd wind to have a fighting chance vs all the shit we gotta deal with in the root/stun category and have no counter to. And losing enrage hurts -- bad. So everyone else gets to have their 41 talent point builds with minor sacrifices. Warriors get to get shitstomped by felguards and water elementals and 1k judgements and 350 corruptions/mindflays/SW : pain and whatever else because they're worse off than they were last patch. Everyone else got a buff, warriors took a nerf, and that offset the scales quite a bit.

12-06-2006, 01:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
Talzar Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 129 -6 Internets	These discussions come up all the time talking about 1v1 PvP and all I have to say is: Who gives a shit!? PvP is not about 1v1. PvP is a group effort. How well you do 1v1 means about jack shit in any world PvP or battleground PvP environment. Also remember kids: Skill > Gear > Class composition. All these stories about "I saw soandso kill 3 other people at the same time with no problem and he was only wearing blues and tier 1 armor!" No shit, some people know how to play, others suck ass, anecdotal remarks like that are pointless. PvP will remain what it's been ever since the beginning, a group effort. And if anyone wants to remark about 2v2 arenas, guess what? The arena points from those aren't going to be close to the points you get from 5v5.

12-06-2006, 02:13 PM	#34 (permalink)
Kodylan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,261 -1 Internets	After playing for a bit last night on my poorly equiped paladin, I think they're quite possibly the best flag stopper in WSG now if the flag is on a druid or rogue.

12-06-2006, 02:39 PM	#35 (permalink)
Jubee This is how I look when I post. Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,777 +5 Internets	Yeah Warriors, just go farm FAPs, and switch to engineering so you can cheese grenades, and also pick up herbalism and go ahead and pvp with a flask on 24/7. If you do that, you'll go back to being a viable pvp class. Pfff To answer the previous question, since you went on hiatus, the following nerfs have been imposed on Warriors off of the top of my head... Weapon swing was normalized so slower weapons didn't get bigger bonuses. Intimidating Shout caps out at 5 targets. Sweeping Strikes -> Whirlwind only gets 1 hit from SS. Sweeping Strikes -> Execute no longer hit the 2nd target for Execute's damage. Rage normalized so getting better gear doesn't increase rage generation. Enrage damage bonus reduced from 40% to 25%. Tactical Mastery moved to Protection. Improved Hamstring changed to a proccable root instead of flat snare % increase. I'm sure I'm missing a few, but most of these are the important changes to pvp skills/talents. We remained viable as these nerfs happened to go hand-in-hand with zones being heavily farmed and stronger weapons made up for it. But with 2.0, our 41 point Arms talent brings our rage generation back up to what it used to be, and Fury's 41 pointer is an abomination of uselessness, especially in pvp. Meanwhile other classes are getting some very nice 41 pointers. Rage normalization hurt, but the biggest nerf was keeping us where we were at and buffing everyone else. I'm rolling Pally in the ex-pac for the record. WTS 3/9 t3 Warrior pst.

12-06-2006, 03:26 PM	#36 (permalink)
GrobbeeTrull Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Springfield, Ohio Posts: 1,685 +0 Internets	That judgement of Justice is fucking cheese. /whine

12-06-2006, 03:29 PM	#37 (permalink)
Olio Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 388 -2 Internets	What does Judgement of Justice do to players? I haven't looked into it recently. Olio

12-06-2006, 03:32 PM	#38 (permalink)
Nehrak It just don't mean a thing. Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Home Posts: 1,118	Rank 2 snares now. Edit - It says "can't move faster than normal move speed" so I guess no Sprint etc. for you!

12-06-2006, 03:35 PM	#39 (permalink)
Burning_Samurai Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 504 +4 Internets	Cloak of shadows, sprint, bye bye.

12-06-2006, 04:08 PM	#40 (permalink)
Vitae Fires of Heaven WoW Officer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 321 +2 Internets	Yeah, those level 66 rogues are just murdering my paladin in wsg as we speak.

12-06-2006, 10:26 PM	#43 (permalink)
Parabola Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 125 +0 Internets	I have no desire to pvp now whatsoever. It's just broken, no other way to describe it.

12-07-2006, 12:05 AM	#44 (permalink)
Anwyn Stop, take some time to think. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 141 +0 Internets	Since when does a fucking Paladin need a god damn snare?! Fuck you HoJ. ps - fuck Crusader Strike in the ass too. Fucking retarded.

12-07-2006, 12:18 AM	#45 (permalink)
Vitae Fires of Heaven WoW Officer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 321 +2 Internets	It's not really a snare. It just caps you at 100% movement speed. Paladins were entirely too easy to run away from. They're still pretty easy to get away from for most classes, but it's not as big a joke as it once was. And for that person listing warrior nerfs - didn't hamstring used to be a 40% snare that the talent took to 50%? And now it's a 50% snare which the talent lets proc an immobilize. Not really a nerf. More a buff, in fact.