FoH guide to EVE Online

[Kazgrim]

If you ARE caldari as a main, and missile biased, what training line would you suggest would be easiest to feed training into? Amarri and Lasers? or what? At this point I can have an uber decked out Caldari Drake if I had the money.

Here are the training lines you need to consider when talking about cross training:

1. "racial" ship skills (ie racial frigate, racial cruiser, racial battleship, etc)
2. shield tanking skills (in engineering tree) and/or armor tanking skills (in mechanic tree)
3. Weapon systems, including Gunnery (Energy, Hybrid, Projectile), Missiles, Drones

For the most part everything else is sorta universal. Minmatar need good navigation skills but everyone benefits from having them, etc.

Average Skills per race:
Caldari > Caldari ship skills, shield tanking skills, missiles.
Gallente > Gallente ship skills, armor tanking skills, hybrid guns, drones.
Amarr > Amarr ship skills, armor tanking skills, energy guns (or projectile guns)
Minmatar > Minmatar ship skills, armor tanking skills, shield tanking skills, missiles, projectile guns.

The first thing you need to cross train is that races ship flying skills obviously, can't even enter a caldari frigate without the caldari frigate skill. The other skills are about fitting the ship properly once you can fly it. After that though, who you cross train over towards should be a function of how much you want to fly the other guys ships compared to how long its going to take you, training wise. Most people would say for caldari go ahead and cross train over to gallente as they have the most in common (both use Hybrid guns) except most caldari don't really have any gunnery skills, and only have a few dedicated gunship platforms that most skip over anyway, so that's not always true. Now caldari *should* have hybrid gunnery skills to get the most out of all their ships, but that doesn't mean that they will.

So if you are looking for easiest, just look to see who has the most in common. And for a missile caldari, that's Minmatar.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally Posted by Saban

Gallente uses alot of hybrid turrets, and caldari use it as a secondary weapon system, so if you want to use gallente ships for pvp, hybrids seem the way to go since caldari and gallente ships both use it.

Sortof, but also not. We're talking about farming skills vs. PVP skills -- you DO NOT train Caldari to FARM with their hybrid platforms. You train them to farm with their missile/shield platforms. You will find that even though the Rokh looks really nice on paper it's not in particularly high demand, so while there is compatibility there, you really won't use it much.

[Fog]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

Sortof, but also not. We're talking about farming skills vs. PVP skills -- you DO NOT train Caldari to FARM with their hybrid platforms. You train them to farm with their missile/shield platforms. You will find that even though the Rokh looks really nice on paper it's not in particularly high demand, so while there is compatibility there, you really won't use it much.

The Eagle is nice if you ever train Caldari Cruiser V (presumably for Rooks and Falcons), and I gather the Harpy is reasonably useful, so in the end you may get some use out of those Caldari/railgun skills.

[Tirinal]

Originally Posted by Fog

The Eagle is nice if you ever train Caldari Cruiser V (presumably for Rooks and Falcons), and I gather the Harpy is reasonably useful, so in the end you may get some use out of those Caldari/railgun skills.

...since when are Eagles nice? I mean, they kill stuff every now and then, but I've yet to have be in a situation where flying a different ship wouldn't have been better. Harpies are halfway decent though, or at least as decent as AFs get.

Regarding crosstraining, keep in mind that you may want to stay in the BC chassis class for as long as possible if it's something you're dedicated towards. Sans destroyers, battlecruiser spaceship command is the only t1 piloting skill that is not racial. So not only is it a very sexy skill to have for eventual command ships, it lets you have remarkable versatility at V since you're pretty effective with all the racial variants even if your supports skills are at III. You can have drakes for ratting, myrms for cheap pvp, etc., and have all of them insure to full.

Originally Posted by Fog

The Manticore is obviously the stealth bomber of choice right now as long as they rely on cruise missles, but who knows what will happen during the changes. I'm leaning toward the Cheetah as my favored covops because it's quite a bit faster and lighter than the Buzzard (with an extra lowslot for more speed) and I don't expect to need the Buzzard's extra CPU with my fitting of choice.

Do we know anything re: stealthbomber changes? At all? I haven't been keeping track of dev comments, but would like to get some other use out of my cov ops V skill.

And yeah, cheetah is the best covert.

[Carino]

Originally Posted by Tirinal

...since when are Eagles nice? I mean, they kill stuff every now and then, but I've yet to have be in a situation where flying a different ship wouldn't have been better. Harpies are halfway decent though, or at least as decent as AFs get.

Eagles are amazing in fleets as anti-tackler ships. They can track extremely well and hit out to extreme distances and pop small ships very quickly.

[Dildo Faggins]

Rapiers are the anti tackler. Everything else is shortchanging yourself

[Tolanin]

curse isnt a bad anti tackle either, its not as good at blowing shit up as rapier but its better at breaking the tackle to let the tackled ship warp out imo. But all the recon ships are pretty good in some area.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Harpies are OK AFs but the Ishkur and the Jag are typically considered the only ones really worth flying. Seriously now, I don't know what the fuck a Harpy is supposed to do that couldn't be done better by something else. Of course, that typically applies to most AFs. At least an Ishkur is a frigate-sized craft with a cruiser/BC sized frig allotment.

[Vorph]

What do people mean by Minmatar ships being more Navigation-intensive than others? I mean, I get the usefulness of the skills, especially for an interceptor or AF... but I guess I don't know enough about other races' ships to see why they don't need it as much as Minmatar.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

It's not really that they don't need it, it's that the Minmatar core strength IS speed, so if you don't have good nav skills you're not really getting the most out of it. It's like saying that you need more drone skills to fly gallente or more cap/tank skills to fly amarr.

[Dildo Faggins]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

Harpies are OK AFs but the Ishkur and the Jag are typically considered the only ones really worth flying. Seriously now, I don't know what the fuck a Harpy is supposed to do that couldn't be done better by something else. Of course, that typically applies to most AFs. At least an Ishkur is a frigate-sized craft with a cruiser/BC sized frig allotment.

All afs have rolls they preform well at, the big problem is everyone WANTS them to be badass tackler tanks, when AFs really arent suited for that. They are too slow and heavy. If you want to tackle people fly a damn interceptor or interdictor. Afs are meant to be fast anti-tacklers in fleets. They watch the incoming interceptors, and meet the ones that are smart enough to flt at your fleet at an angle head on. You have two major advantages working for you in a well setup af. First, you will do enough damage to take down a cruiser or smaller in a relatively quick amount of time. Second, your not going to be near the top of anyones to kill list until you agro them. Use these facts to your advantage.

First off, since your job is defending your fleet from intis, you can get away with using an Afterburner over a mwd, which though it will make you slower, but you dont need the mobility. You arent chasing people down. You are defending ships, big ships that wont be moving fast. If you want to chase people down, again, why the hell arent you in an inti? Secondly, you dont need a warp scram in a good fleet setup. A webber to make it so your tech2 weapons with best ammo can rape upon them, and you can kill many ships before they even know what the hell hit them, yet alone care to panic for the warp button.

These reasons are why wolf is one of my favorite AFs in the game. My setup is amazingly simple and equally effective. 2x gyro2, 1x overdrive2, 1 sar2, ab2, web2, then throw on enough dps to appease god. End result is a ship that can absolutely rape even a cruiser before it knows what the hell is happening. If your feeling really manly, throw that sar off in favor for another gyro. Use AF's for what they were meant for. Extremely high damage anti interceptor types. Using an AF to try and tackle people just makes me sad. Some here might say destroyers are a lot better at anti tackler work. Those people have obviously never flown a destroyer in a fleet. Destroyers pop like bubblewrap in fleet combat. They are too fat.

[Vorph]

Alright, hopefully this will be the last battery of questions I need to finally make up my mind.

Keeping in mind that my current leaning is towards training for a Stiletto and a Cheetah (and maybe a Jaguar at some point) as the ships I actually want to play with by choice, battlecruisers will be something I get just out of necessity, and that's probably the largest ship I will consider for at least 6 months (so whether a Dom is a better BS than a Typhoon isn't something I'm taking much into account for now):

I can either get a Myrmidon or a Hurricane. Either one will let me stick with projectiles, which I like because it's a minor time savings, I'm used to them, and they cover all the damage types. The difference in training time is negligible (~12 hours). Looking at the two ships in EVEMon though, it seems like the Hurricane is the better ship in nearly every category except for the size of the drone bay, and it has one less mid slot.

So if I'm using the BC for PvE ~90% of the time, is the drone bay going to make all the difference? I'm not even sure what sort of PVP I'm going to get into, since I don't have a corp at the moment. I like the idea of fighting over territory and shit like that, but I have zero interest in fucking with people just for the hell of it (i.e. gate camping, killing miners, etc.).

Also, having spent another hour reading about BCs while writing this post, it seems that even a Cyclone is more than sufficient to handle any L3 mission. Will a Myrmidon be much more efficient (or able to do L4 at some point), and more importantly is it needed for 0.0 ratting or clearing out exploration sites so that a Cheetah can get in there?


I'm really starting to wish I'd started as an Achura Monk with Mining spec so my combat stuff was a clean slate and I could just mine for however long it takes to train everything else to decent levels while deciding what to do in the long term. :/


P.S. Is this true:

Originally Posted by Grismar's EVE Wiki

Connections will raise your effective standing towards NPC factions, corporations and their agents by 4% of the difference between the maximum 10.0 and your current standing for every skill level trained. This only works towards friendly corporations, i.e. corporations with a base standing of 0.00 or better. If the faction or corporation already has negative base standing towards you, the Diplomacy skill is applied towards your standing with them and their agents, even if you have positive standing with one of their agents.

and if so, why isn't it at the top of every recommendation list for things to train right away if you're going to be a mission runner? The way they describe it, with just 2 levels in Connections you can be using a quality 16 L1 agent immediately for any corp you have non-negative standing with.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Myrm can run L4s. The difference in drone bay capacities is HUGE, Myrm can use 5 heavy drones vs. the cyclone and cane who can't even use 5 mediums. Then the Myrm has the drone damage bonus. Definitely sticking to projectiles will work well if you're only training Gallente for the mission running as you'll save cap *DISCLAIMER* I don't know what drawbacks there might be for mission running that would overtake the versatility (sort-of) in damage types and lack of cap usage. Passive shield tank, medium projectiles, 5 heavy drones...win.

Only drawback is you'd need to invest more heavily in drone skills than you'd want to for Minmatar ships in order to farm effectively but if you just want to run small ships you A) don't need all that many SP to get navigation shit good and B) you don't have to make that much isk anyway

Edit: Regarding connections, dunno, I never trained them, and I've run a lot of missions. Guess I'd just rather not spend any SP that does nothing for me but give me standings I'll get anyway, or any of the other social skills that only benefit my mission running by some percentage.

[Tirinal]

Originally Posted by Vorph

I can either get a Myrmidon or a Hurricane. Either one will let me stick with projectiles, which I like because it's a minor time savings, I'm used to them, and they cover all the damage types. The difference in training time is negligible (~12 hours). Looking at the two ships in EVEMon though, it seems like the Hurricane is the better ship in nearly every category except for the size of the drone bay, and it has one less mid slot.

Not quite. In fact, the myrm is considered by pretty much everyone as both OP and the pre-eminent BC. To give you an idea of what you're working with, and assuming maxed skills for both, 5 heavies on the myrm should outdamage 6 turrets on the 'cane despire its dual damage bonus. This is without taking into account the dumbfire nature of drones (fire&forget, transversal is for chumps) or the 6 turret slots the myrm has (which can and should be used for projectiles, as there is no racial turret bonus stopping you). The hurricane is by contrast seen as somewhat lacking, though still pretty solid. It's also in no way a pve ship.

So if I'm using the BC for PvE ~90% of the time, is the drone bay going to make all the difference? I'm not even sure what sort of PVP I'm going to get into, since I don't have a corp at the moment. I like the idea of fighting over territory and shit like that, but I have zero interest in fucking with people just for the hell of it (i.e. gate camping, killing miners, etc.).

Yup. Once you get drone navigation V, the little buggers really do eclipse a lot of things. For pvp, both ships are fine.

Also, having spent another hour reading about BCs while writing this post, it seems that even a Cyclone is more than sufficient to handle any L3 mission. Will a Myrmidon be much more efficient (or able to do L4 at some point), and more importantly is it needed for 0.0 ratting or clearing out exploration sites so that a Cheetah can get in there?

The myrm can probably do L4s without much difficulty. Whether it can do them efficiently is up for debate.

A cyclone is fine for most all exploration sites in npc nullsec, though this assumes decent-ish skills. Though I'm unsure why you'd need to clear the site first so the Cheetah can get in there; you can hack containers in your BC. In fact, you'll need its cargobay.

I'm really starting to wish I'd started as an Achura Monk with Mining spec so my combat stuff was a clean slate and I could just mine for however long it takes to train everything else to decent levels while deciding what to do in the long term. :/

Mining is retarded and if you ever talk like this again I'll find out where you live.

__

Finally, keep in mind that for the ships you listed once you train small projectile turret V (5-10 days) you're effectively "done" in the dps department. Everything else you have in gunnery carries over. So don't stress about which turret type you grab in the meantime.

P.S. Is this true:

Sounds about right. The social skills are essential if you interact with npcs.

I may be wrong though, I've yet to run a single mission in 1.2 years of playing EvE.

[Tolanin]

Originally Posted by Dildo Faggins

All afs have rolls they preform well at, the big problem is everyone WANTS them to be badass tackler tanks, when AFs really arent suited for that. They are too slow and heavy. If you want to tackle people fly a damn interceptor or interdictor. Afs are meant to be fast anti-tacklers in fleets. They watch the incoming interceptors, and meet the ones that are smart enough to flt at your fleet at an angle head on. You have two major advantages working for you in a well setup af. First, you will do enough damage to take down a cruiser or smaller in a relatively quick amount of time. Second, your not going to be near the top of anyones to kill list until you agro them. Use these facts to your advantage.

First off, since your job is defending your fleet from intis, you can get away with using an Afterburner over a mwd, which though it will make you slower, but you dont need the mobility. You arent chasing people down. You are defending ships, big ships that wont be moving fast. If you want to chase people down, again, why the hell arent you in an inti? Secondly, you dont need a warp scram in a good fleet setup. A webber to make it so your tech2 weapons with best ammo can rape upon them, and you can kill many ships before they even know what the hell hit them, yet alone care to panic for the warp button.

These reasons are why wolf is one of my favorite AFs in the game. My setup is amazingly simple and equally effective. 2x gyro2, 1x overdrive2, 1 sar2, ab2, web2, then throw on enough dps to appease god. End result is a ship that can absolutely rape even a cruiser before it knows what the hell is happening. If your feeling really manly, throw that sar off in favor for another gyro. Use AF's for what they were meant for. Extremely high damage anti interceptor types. Using an AF to try and tackle people just makes me sad. Some here might say destroyers are a lot better at anti tackler work. Those people have obviously never flown a destroyer in a fleet. Destroyers pop like bubblewrap in fleet combat. They are too fat.

Problem most people have with AFs is they dont have a distinct role that other ships dont do better like most every other T2 ship.. recons and hacs are both better than the AF at anti support.. where intys and dictors are useful to the fleet and each is needed thats not true of an AF, no one ever holds the fleet up because they dont have enough AFs. Theres a few exceptions to that but not many, the ishkur almost does enough dps on its own to be worth it, but the enyo annd most other races AFs dont do much more dmg than a ranis, and you give up a huge amount of other utilities to get that small dmg increase over the inty.

PS myrm is a sick BC and owns all the other BCs. It can get you through a lvl4 at about the same speed as a domi or raven if you have the skills for it... its only real weakness is its drone bay is smaller than the domis so it cant have light/med drones to compliment its heavies.