What to do with Naxx?

[needraRZ]

As the expansion draws closer I'm wondering more and more about Naxx. My (pretty casual) guild is currently farming BWL and working through AQ40, just on Frank now, and making good progress.

Reading about Naxx, I'm pretty excited about some of the encounters. They sound like a great challenge but.... its not looking like we'll make much progress there before TBC is out. Even if we can start it before then we'll be in 'let the guild reduce down mode' rather than recuiting people for hard 40 mans.

Can anything be done so all the good work done in designing Naxx isnt 'wasted' for a large amount of the raiding player base?

I think I'd be happy if they tuned it for 25 man difficulty, and added some rewards to make it worthwhile. Maybe good socket items or so? Ideally the difficulty would be such that guilds who have worked hard farming it as a 40 man and spent the time learning the zone could complete it as a 25man without much difficulty but the guilds new to the zone (in AQ gear) find it challenging. Perhaps the more advanced guilds could use it like they use ZG/AQ now for making smaller (optional but cool) gear upgrades.

One option may be to leave Naxx as it is, but use the new 'hard mode' mechanic to switch on the 25 man mode?

Enough waffling, you get the idea. Naxx sounds like a great zone, I'd really hate to skip it. Going back with 40 level 70's just isnt gonna be as much fun, especially if the loot is all sidegrades or downgrades

[Zehn - Vhex]

I think guilds will still do it just for a Medivh's tower port stick. Other then that though, I don't see much point in revamping it for the expansion. Comparitively speaking, look at all of EQ's old raid content. People still did it for kicks and giggles and simply just to experience. I used to run small groups to go do shit in like Akheva or Acrylia, NToV and whatnot and even though everyone had better gear, it was still fun to do.

Let's put it this way, who -didn't- get a kick out of taking a group of 6 and raping NToV now and then? 3-manning VP? Soloing Venril Sathir? Etc...etc...

It's just the way of things with MMO's.

[needraRZ]

I think theres a marked and worrying difference here:

>People still did it for kicks and giggles and simply just to experience.

When I played EQ we were an endgame guild at the cutting edge, and yes we still did old content for fun. BUT.. the 2nd or 3rd tier guilds did this content for real. For them it was still on their upgrade path.

They did it because it gave them meaning full upgrades. Ok so it was easier for them cause they had more levels/aa etc, but they couldnt just do some of the new 1 grp content to get similar gear, they had to use the raid content.

Thats the difference, 2nd/3rd tier guild will not feel the need to do Naxx because there will be better/similar gear avail through easier routes.

To use EQ examples, when the POP came out, lots of guilds still did Vex Thall because it geared them up in gear that made the POP encounters a lot easier, and because the VT gear was still pretty comparible to the initial POP encounters. Guilds did VT because they got a load of good upgrades, they didnt think.... well VT gear is nice but I can just do this 5 man and get gear thats about the same.

Guess I'd like the option to do Naxx for real, rather than just for shits and giggles, and I dont see my guild being up for staying level 60 till we get naxx cleared

[eqjim]

makes me wonder...whats going to be the upgrade path after the expansion?

right now the 40man goes MC -> BWL -> AQ40 -> NAXX.. are guilds going to stop at level 60, 40 man these and then continue to 70 and start raiding then? i doubt it.

other instances will probally continue to see action because you can level in them (scholo/strat/dm/etc) but these 40man raids are gonna go by the wayside i would think.


looking at level 70 BLUES compared to level 60 epics, whats the point of even doing these old raids? (for old timers, yeah sure..nostalgia. but what about those players who join when/or after BC comes out?)

its sad to think that all those raid instances wont be used AT ALL because going to BC 5mans will be easier and provide better gear.

how would you feel if they were changed into dungeons you could level in from 66~ to 70?

[needraRZ]

I think any reasonable use for them is ok, so long as its fun.

It would be 'ok' to do them with 40 level 70's for the hell of it (or less people for the challenge), but I'd love to see the zones as developers intended especially after all the threads discussing how the zone was pretty well balanced and had some fun encounters.

If they dont change I see myself running the zones with few enough people to make it a challenge for fun, but it'd be nice to have some carrots in the zone to encourage people to join me

[Jooka]

right now the 40man goes MC -> BWL -> AQ40 -> NAXX.. are guilds going to stop at level 60, 40 man these and then continue to 70 and start raiding then? i doubt it.

not even close, Casual guilds who ahve never really experienced any of the raiding content will now get to enjoy what raiding guilds have been enjoying yet on an easier scale. They will get to complete the conten they have only heard about on there timetable. The expansion couldnt hit at a btter time, provided the new content is up to pace for guilds who have been there down that. Whats great about WoW is that they have been very willing to give content to everyone no matter the playstyle/timeframe. The expansion will be no exception.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by needraRZ

I think...

I can certainly understand what you're getting at. It's just that there's really no point. It's old hat content, simple as that really. I mean, if Naxx, why not BWL and MC too? Why don't we revamp MC to be a 10 man gateway dungeon, then BWL/AQ40, then Naxx, and then you get to start working on the new stuff that came with the expansion.

Hell let's do that every expansion. When the next one comes out and the level cap is upped to 80, let's revamp MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx and all the TBC raid zones for level 80 content so that new players can relive the glory days and actually get something out of it!

It's simplly a design decision. You can either let content just die and go to the wayside so that small groups of friends can do it for shits and giggles (I certainly have no upgrades coming to me out of Stratholm but we still go and do it now and then to kill some time) or you can keep revamping it to make sure it's worthwhile from a loot perspective to go there.

Both have their merits. I vote we let it die. If people want to go back and check out old shit, they're more then welcome to it. On the other hand, I wouldn't want new players to have to spend 3 years catching up on old content just to get to current stuff (think EQ and AA's and how poorly those were implemented).

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by Jooka

not even close, Casual guilds who ahve never really experienced any of the raiding content will now get to enjoy what raiding guilds have been enjoying yet on an easier scale. They will get to complete the conten they have only heard about on there timetable.

Well, except casual guils will still have quite a challenge in Naxx even at level 70. There is quite a few encounters that you can't outlevel - Anub, Heigan, Gluth,Thaddius, 4hm. Yeah, and don't forget Noth that is nightmare mode without decursive.
Not to mention there is zero reason for them to run that content. There is BoE crafted weapons better than Naxx ones. Did you saw that SS of "hard mode token reward" ? Caster trinket is better than the one from Saphiron.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

stuff

I think we all understand that old hat content falls to the wayside at some point. I think what the OP is getting at though is whats about to happen to WoW is 'not' standard MMO timeline stuff. As expansions come out and people continue on in content the old stuff does become pointless unless its for shits and giggles this is true. However, its still part of progression at least some what for ALOT of people... this is not going to be the case with WoW.

Since EQ was mentioned Ill use it as the example. Still to this day people like, want and use their 1.0 epics. We are talking Kunark here... and it STILL offers content that alot of people use. Sure it might be mainly alts getting their epics now but its still a valid step in a new characters progression. The same can be said for Velious... AoW is still worth taking down, and is taken down fairly quickly after he spawns. This isnt for shits and giggles this is content people still use because they want/need something.

Ok fast forward a few expansions to GoD/OoW era. 2 new expansions, both with content greater then Planes of Power. I cant even imagine how big a cluster fuck a raid would be that tried to skip Elemental/Time and just work for Tacvi/Anguish. Is it possible? Perhaps but the effort it would take would NOT be worth the biblical ass kicking you would take trying to accomplish it. My point being that the new expansions did not just make PoP skippable because they offered better loot... you have to follow some form of progression or you will get fucked up.

None of this rings true for WoW which is why it has caused some concern amongst the community. With level 70 single groupable blues being as good as they are you could happily skip MC, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx and never skip a beat. Its not making the old content trivial, its making it a pointless waste of space. I cant think of a single reason to use MC, BWL, AQ40 or Naxx in the future once the new stuff is out. It doesnt even serve as a good place to gear alts. They could delete the zones and not effect the progression cycle in the slightest.

The question is, and has been this. Why are people busting their ass on this current content when they dont need to be? We have people wasting consumables by the fucking truck load and earning massive repair bills all for loot that you will be replaceing in a few weeks in simple single group content? I know a handful of guilds on my server that have stalled their progression because of this very thing.

Sure a guy in full Naxx gear might level quicker to 70, and get his uber blue loot faster then the guy in a mix of UBRS/ZG gear but the guy in UBRS/ZG gear will be getting it a few weeks later at the most.

Its not really a big deal but I for one am happy I decided to take a little retirement break before getting my hands really dirty in Naxx. The very thought of some guy that plays 10 hours a week getting loot that would be an upgrade to me as a current end game raider stings more then a bit. Then again we could be really off... perhaps some of the 5-10 man content in TBC is just really fuckin brutal and not being in BWL+ gear will make it nearly impossible, /shrug. Who knows?

[Sean]

For the pride of doing the content while it's difficult and before new shit is released dude. That's the point of doing Naxx right now. Sure, all you get to take out of Naxx right now is some Staves for using with Medvih's Tower, but that's perfectly fine with me.

And level 65 blue loot is near Naxx level, level 70 shit is pretty much garunteed to easily overshadow it - especially since old world gear is not getting its STA levels increased like Outlands gear is.

It's really only about finishing content and saying you did it, but what's wrong with that?

[eqjim]

yeah, its probally best to just leave them how they are.. if anyone wants to check them out, go ahead.

tho maybe they should check out some of the fights that are really de-curse/spell heavy and maybe tone those down since those types of mods are being removed.

[Zehn - Vhex]

They were doable without decursive and whatnot. And since you would only be doing them once or twice for kicks it wouldn't be so bad. It's doing the encounter for the 80th time that makes not having decursive really fucking annoying.

[Immy]

Unless you're REALLY comfortable with your guilds progression and it's actually fun, raiding is just not worth it right now.

We're all just killing time until the expansion is released...making everything we're doing today obsolete and useless. I dont think anyone can deny that.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Eh, guilds still call bragging rights on killing Rag, Ony, Vael, Broodlord, Grand Widow, etc...etc...on earlier harder versions. You can argue that you don't give a shit and so all the more power to you.

For a simple EQ comparison, look at the list of people who killed AoW prior to the spam gland and AA's. It's a pretty small list. It doesn't really mean shit but, y'know...

[Sean]

Yes, but some people take enjoyment out of just raiding, of just doing content, of making sure you've done everything there is to do. I know a good number of people in my guild raid just to raid, and don't care that their loot is being replaced.

Not everything is about loot dude.

Also, your sig pic mesmorizes me and makes me wish I had a phat bowl right now.