Will you be trying Vanguard?

[Seths]

Originally Posted by Faille

Is there anything in that stretch of ocean interesting at all?
Apart from the Kojan islands, I mean way out in the middle of nowhere. Even decrorative stuff like dolphins and whales would be interesting, but ideally I would want to see pirate ships and sea monsters and stuff you could actually interact with that was rare enough to be special, but common enough that most people would have a good chance to experience them.

If I remember correctly their plan is to have the ocean's be nearly as interactive as the land masses with sea battles, pirates, monsters, random events, etc.

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Funny, but so not true. Our emphasis on horses, ships, flying mounts, etc., plus our offline travel system (Caravans) have really taken a huge world and made it accessible.

I don't get it....

You have a huge world with points of interest so far apart that it's much too large to travel by foot, so you introduced horses, ships and flying mounts plus offline travel to make it accessible. What's that other than if you don't have a horse you are screwed?

Well, you may argue that everyone get's a horse early, so nobody get's screwed, but if that's the case, what's the whole purpose of it? All you did was to blow up the size of the world to "reduce" it again by introducing travel acceleration tools. It's like saying "Ok, the world is huge, but don't worry, because everyone has build in SoW".

I mean if the world is let's say 10 times the size of "normal" and you are offering tools that make you travel let's say 10 times as fast as "normal" what do you gain? It should feel like a normal world with normal traveltime after all. The downside is that zillions of areas have to be filled with mindless random content or simply remain empty which is the major problem with the whole game.

Regardless how you twist it, this oversized world will come back to bite you in the ass. It's simply a bad core decision that the game will suffer from forever.

[Lenaldo]

Originally Posted by Neric

I don't get it....

You have a huge world with points of interest so far apart that it's much too large to travel by foot, so you introduced horses, ships and flying mounts plus offline travel to make it accessible. What's that other than if you don't have a horse you are screwed?

Well, you may argue that everyone get's a horse early, so nobody get's screwed, but if that's the case, what's the whole purpose of it? All you did was to blow up the size of the world to "reduce" it again by introducing travel acceleration tools. It's like saying "Ok, the world is huge, but don't worry, because everyone has build in SoW".

I mean if the world is let's say 10 times the size of "normal" and you are offering tools that make you travel let's say 10 times as fast as "normal" what do you gain? It should feel like a normal world with normal traveltime after all. The downside is that zillions of areas have to be filled with mindless random content or simply remain empty which is the major problem with the whole game.

Regardless how you twist it, this oversized world will come back to bite you in the ass. It's simply a bad core decision that the game will suffer from forever.

I disagree. Have you ever been to a giant university compared to a small college? Sure, at first the big university seems impossible to learn/travel, but after awhile you realize its really not that big. It may take longer to get places, but theres also more places to go.

A small place will always be small.. you can't make it big... you can make a big place feel smaller.. just my 2 cents

[LISeru]

Originally Posted by Neric

I mean if the world is let's say 10 times the size of "normal" and you are offering tools that make you travel let's say 10 times as fast as "normal" what do you gain?

If everyone had been able to run at bard speed in EQ, would there have been less content? No.

The physical size of the world is a ratio of average model size to landscape.

Speed, on the other hand, is the rate at which you pass over terrain. Thus, with a smaller average model size, you are bypassing more content. Does teleporting somehow make the world smaller? It just makes the world more easily accessable. The pros and cons of this are a different issue, however.

[realadxm]

Too much brown.

[Faelor]

I personally do not mind spending an extra 5 minutes to get to a destination, as long as I have some eye-candy and know the travel will be worth it. I hated spending 3 minutes to get anywhere I want in a game (okay, a wee bit of an exageration but still).

Could it bite Vanguard in the ass? Oh yes, totally. I don't think, and I pray it won't. But I am not going to be stupid and say there isn't a possibility. The line between being tedious and fun in MMOs is extremely thin it seems. Just another challenge the Sigil devs must conquer if they want Vanguard to be sucessful.

[LISeru]

Here's a different way to analyze it:

A 1x16 rectangle is very spread out. I could calculate the average distance between two points in the rectangle, but you wouldn't care. However, I can assure you that it is greater than the average distance between two points in a 4x4 rectangle. Both have the same area. Which one is bigger? Assuming we are using area and not average distance, they are both the same size.

Using speed to measure worldsize is similar to using the average distance to determine which of two rectangles is bigger.

Using the ratio of average model size to terrain is similar to using area to determine which of two rectangles is bigger.

Area determines amount of content. Average distance determines travel time.

You can reduce one without reducing the other.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

Seriosly, while gameplay advancement at mid to higher levels isn't as fast as WoW, it isn't that slow either, and we've created a world with so much more freedom -- different paths of advancement, ways to keep your group together including offline travel with our Caravan system, an advanced LFG system that looks for people with common interests so hopefully that pick up group turns into a regular group of friends, and such a vast, but still varied and interesting seamless world to explore, while you like won't hit max level as fast, you'll be doing so many other things, your overall days played will be longer, but they shouldn't feel like a timesink.

No, we're not perfect, and there will be some grind (just as there is in WoW), but we went into this project (almost 4.5 years ago now) planning on how to minimize the grind, make adventuring fun, make traveling meaningful and fun, and bringing back the 'doing of dungeons' with out encounter routes and non-instanced worlds.

Vanguard may not be for everyone, but I think to a great many it will be a breath of fresh air. The timesink and the grind is our enemy every bit as it is yours and we are comitted to stomping it out as much as possible, and we'll only get better and better

Well Brad it is difficult for me to comment completely without seeing an end product, but you have to acknowledge that your game does seem to require ALOT of time. There was a time in my life where I made such commitments happily, but not now. I prefer games where you can pretty much log in for a few hours, have fun, accomplish something meaningful, and log off. To a large extent, I think that is the lure of WOW.

That one comment about offline caravans, tho, kind of got a chuckle out of me. To my online friends, welp let me get some sleep and maybe catch up with you guys next day via the caravan heheh.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by LISeru

If everyone had been able to run at bard speed in EQ, would there have been less content? No.

The physical size of the world is a ratio of average model size to landscape.

Speed, on the other hand, is the rate at which you pass over terrain. Thus, with a smaller average model size, you are bypassing more content. Does teleporting somehow make the world smaller? It just makes the world more easily accessable. The pros and cons of this are a different issue, however.

Yeah I have to agree with this too. Big is fine if there is content filled in and not just filler space. One problem I can see tho is a lack of players around you once you start leaving the newbie areas. Big with a small population can suck.

[Aradune Mithara]

The world size is such that we can add content according to our long term plan without having to shoehorn things in. By making sure people have horses and such we get the best of both 'worlds' (pardon the pun). We have the room to expand in a logical planned out way, but we also keep the travel times reaonsable and we also have plenty of content to fill up that world (except for all of the water, hence the over water teleports).

We planned this game out from the beginnng to last for at minimum 7 years without havine to shoe horn in content, tech, etc. Hence the world size, including the amount of ocean. We have a world map that has continents and islands and other points of interest that will take us around 7 years to complete, and so we built accordingly. And like I said, on the ground we've already succeded in beta -- people do not complain about travel time because we've made it such that they get faster mounts (eventually flying mounts) and other mechanics (how lower level mobs react to you, etc.) and people can get around without a problem.

When we started working with ships, however, we determined that a. the area is so large and b. you can only do so much with water that we needed teleports if people wanted to get from point a to point b on a continental basis. They then can also use their ocean going ships to explore a huge area (the Kojanese archipelago and lots of other areas) if their desire is to explore the seas as opposed to getting from Thestra to Qalia (or to another major continent in the future).

[Cordan]

I am playing VG since Beta2 and to be honest i will not play it when it goes final.
There are lots of flaws in the game.

Based on my previous experiences (EQ since beta and WoW playing since beta) imho VG is not ready for a release within the next 4-6 months.

The UI is a pain. Graphics ingame are not that appealing for me (yea the screenshots look nice but well.. they are screenshots).

One positive thing about the beta is that the majority of the beta people are helpfull and very active ingame.

[Yutnopash]

And to be honest, the numerous post from Brad make me unsure about VG. I'd never even HEARD of Vanguard till I came here a few months back and saw the self promoting posts from Brad etc. It's getting to be like those Head On Commercials with Brad as the woman in them...

Vanguard apply directly to the forehead..
Vanguard apply directly to the forehead..
Vanguard apply directly to the forehead..
Vanguard apply directly to the forehead..

Hate to quote my own post, but it only took 5 pages for this statement to ring true again...

And once again, I'm not seeing anything that would draw me to VG. Maybe once the NDA is lifted I'll be intrigued..but right now given the info we have available and the constant "zomg guys look at this!" by Brad it's not enough.

The best PR you can have is word of mouth, and when the mouth is by the person most closely associated with the product it's VERY hard not to be skeptical.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Yeah I have to agree with this too. Big is fine if there is content filled in and not just filler space. One problem I can see tho is a lack of players around you once you start leaving the newbie areas. Big with a small population can suck.

There is plenty of content on the land and also we will have enough people per shard such that we will not suffer under population issues. And then we have lots of mechanics to not just get around quickly, but also to keep your gruop together over these large expanses.

The result is already a success in beta, at least on land. No one complains about travel times, and as we add more people and more content, there are less and less concerns about an interesting world with lots to do.

So thus far our decision to lay the world out this way has been a success both short term and will also be for the long term.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

And like I said, on the ground we've already succeded in beta -- people do not complain about travel time because we've made it such that they get faster mounts (eventually flying mounts) and other mechanics (how lower level mobs react to you, etc.) and people can get around without a problem.

Are you kidding with this?

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Yutnopash

Hate to quote my own post, but it only took 5 pages for this statement to ring true again...

And once again, I'm not seeing anything that would draw me to VG. Maybe once the NDA is lifted I'll be intrigued..but right now given the info we have available and the constant "zomg guys look at this!" by Brad it's not enough.

The best PR you can have is word of mouth, and when the mouth is by the person most closely associated with the product it's VERY hard not to be skeptical.

Absolutely. I can be only so effective (though I have been very successful, as have other Sigil people) in evangelizing the game.

But it won't be enough. That is why we have started a major marketing campaign, let journalists into the game, and will lift the NDA with plenty of time for word of mouth to get around from non-Sigil and even non-Journalist sources.