Lots of new Vanguard info released, plus videos & screenshots

[Lonin]

Agree or disagree, a lot of the people who have put literally months of /played into testing Vanguard have left or are leaving the game. Two of the top guilds (including the one that did the raid testing) voiced their concerns and were pretty much shot down, so they left, and many other players have expressed their disinterest in the game recently.

I'll also stand by my statement that many mechanics that were only recently removed from the FAQ are now and have been gone for quite some time. Sure, the big name features like flying mounts, seamless world, and diplomacy still may be in the game, but most of the mechanics are gone and have been replaced with poorly designed and/or implemented cookie-cutter versions.

[rinthea]

Originally Posted by Lonin

Agree or disagree, a lot of the people who have put literally months of /played into testing Vanguard have left or are leaving the game. Two of the top guilds (including the one that did the raid testing) voiced their concerns and were pretty much shot down, so they left, and many other players have expressed their disinterest in the game recently.

I'll also stand by my statement that many mechanics that were only recently removed from the FAQ are now and have been gone for quite some time. Sure, the big name features like flying mounts, seamless world, and diplomacy still may be in the game, but most of the mechanics are gone and have been replaced with poorly designed and/or implemented cookie-cutter versions.

Can you give examples please?

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

If the game is decent at release I wont lose any sleep at night knowing my money is going to make the game better.

I could deal with it I think. I'm not saying its ok really, but if any developer shortchanges the customer at release, and then follows through on the promise of delivering a finished product within a reasonable period of time, i'd certainly respect them for stepping up to the plate and admitting it.

However, I seriously doubt you'll ever see it happen. Human nature has deemed it too undesirable to admit when they screw up. Especially to thousands of screaming subscribers that won't care if they were honest or not.

[Anwyn]

Originally Posted by Rayne

I could deal with it I think. I'm not saying its ok really, but if any developer shortchanges the customer at release, and then follows through on the promise of delivering a finished product within a reasonable period of time, i'd certainly respect them for stepping up to the plate and admitting it.

However, I seriously doubt you'll ever see it happen. Human nature has deemed it too undesirable to admit when they screw up. Especially to thousands of screaming subscribers that won't care if they were honest or not.

God, that struck home. Bolded part = Blizzard. 2 years now and we still haven't gotten the finished product.

[Laerazi]

Originally Posted by Lonin

Agree or disagree, a lot of the people who have put literally months of /played into testing Vanguard have left or are leaving the game. Two of the top guilds (including the one that did the raid testing) voiced their concerns and were pretty much shot down, so they left, and many other players have expressed their disinterest in the game recently.

People leave for all sorts of reasons; though none indicate that the game is in any way bad. Not their playstyle? Yes. Bad? Subjective. Obviously not to the liking of those individuals, but these guilds are probably the same people that couldn't stand playing WoW, and obviously that game isn't horrible for some (millions of) people.

From what I've seen, they're experimenting with new systems pre-launch; experimenting meaning not final. They've shown in the past that if it doesn't work, it doesn't stay.

Of course, that's not to imply that the game is fantastic, by any means; but I think it's up to the individual to check it out for themselves. I think Sigil is far enough along with Vanguard that they really could pull it off, but to each their own.

I'll also stand by my statement that many mechanics that were only recently removed from the FAQ are now and have been gone for quite some time. Sure, the big name features like flying mounts, seamless world, and diplomacy still may be in the game, but most of the mechanics are gone and have been replaced with poorly designed and/or implemented cookie-cutter versions.

Please list these out in detail; as you've mentioned twice already that they aren't including features they promised and won't be delivering on. I'm really curious what they are.

[Arden]

Yes, I am curious too. Which features specifically are you referring to? I remember very well reading the FAQ a few years back, and I even have quotes from it for other posts- so I would like to see what they promised on that they won't be delivering. And please be specific as you can- none of this "They said right here the game would be fun, and clearly they are not delivering", because that stuff is both way too vague and subjective.

Edit:
I am talking about this statement in case there is any confusion:

"I'll also stand by my statement that many mechanics that were only recently removed from the FAQ are now and have been gone for quite some time. Sure, the big name features like flying mounts, seamless world, and diplomacy still may be in the game, but most of the mechanics are gone and have been replaced with poorly designed and/or implemented cookie-cutter versions."

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Lonin

Agree or disagree, a lot of the people who have put literally months of /played into testing Vanguard have left or are leaving the game. Two of the top guilds (including the one that did the raid testing) voiced their concerns and were pretty much shot down, so they left, and many other players have expressed their disinterest in the game recently.

You know, Vanguard is not for everyone. Maybe they were not hardcore enough

[Lost Ranger]

Yeah I would kinda like to know what features we were promised at launch that were removed from the FAQ/game as well? Details please.

[Cantatus]

Originally Posted by Lost Ranger

Far as I am concerned the tactic is fine so long as the launched product has enough too do and have "fun" with that I dont feel I am paying (insert company here) to beta test their game. Warcraft was lite in the content department when they released it and could of used more time in production but what they released was great... so no harm done. On the flip side EQ2 was pure shit and paying them to 'fix' their product left a sour taste in my mouth.

If Vanguard released with enough to do and enjoy for a few months I dont see the problem with them taking box sale profit and continuing to finish what they started.

I think you have it summarized fairly well. WoW knew what was important to keep and what could be put off. EQ2 tried to get the content in, letting gameplay fall by the wayside, and according to most accounts I've heard, failed at both (and has never quite rebounded from that unfortunately.)

Personally, I'm more frustrated with a MMOG when the features (crafting, houses, etc.) aren't fully implemented rather than the zones. If Vanguard were to release with a few less areas in favor of getting Diplomacy fully implemented and having classes fun, it probably wouldn't be as hard for me to get into. The important thing is to be able to have fun in what's in the game, not to have a ton of game that's not.

Still though, I loathe buying unfinished MMOGs. The "MMOGs are never finished." thing with Vanguard does worry me though. Used to be they understood the complaints with SOE's past bumbling, but now we get vague cop-outs. At least they've been upfront about some of the things that won't make release (like town building and Inquisitors.) That's more than I can ask of some developers.

[Lonin]

First off, the guild that tested Sigil's raid content and recently left Vanguard is now playing WoW, so they certainly aren't the typical "OMGZ WOW IS SO EASYMODE!!1" Vanguard players.

Secondly, I never once said any of these features were "promised," and in fact, I don't necessarily think changing the features is a bad thing. My point was that Sigil left the FAQ up for so long with mechanics and features that are now long dead that I suspect many people looking forward to Vanguard because of those mechanics and features will be dissapointed. If you want specifics I'll throw out a few:

1) Caravans, this supposedly 3rd generation feature just lets you log out for 3 (I believe) hours and end up at the bind point of the caravan leader when you log in again. 2) AES (Advanced Encounter System) is virtually non-existent in the game. Brad even stated in his recent post that this was over-hyped and will only be in the game to a much smaller extent. 3) Tactile/aimed combat system. The whole combat mechanic where you aimed your strikes to certain hitboxes on your target, including the wound system, was scrapped back in beta 2.0. 4) Boats, also in the game to a lesser extent than was originally implied. 5) The whole chain combat system is an extremely shallow and boring mechanic. Not nearly as involved as was previously implied. 6) Diplomacy may eventually live up to the hype that it has been given by Sigil, but it won't by release. It has a lot of potential, but that's Vanguard in a nutshell, potential and no follow-through. 7) Unique and in-depth character customization (in terms of gameplay, not graphics). This is quite possibly the biggest downfall of Vanguard IMO. After you hit level 20, you get maybe 5 more new spells until 50, the rest are just new ranks. On top of this, with the exception of a few classes with paths (monk, shaman), all characters of the same class will play exactly the same. There is pretty much no option to advance your character in a different route than someone else. 8) Lore, or lack of it. There are lots of small story lines throughout Vanguard, some better than others, but most people enjoy the over-arching lore the most. Why is this city here? Why do the dark elves and gnomes hate eachother? Why should I bother fighting at all? What is the threat to the world? Etc, etc, etc. Vanguard is seriously lacking in large scale lore, at least in-game. 9) Faction systems, or once again, the lack of it. Faction plays very little role in Vanguard currently. I'm sure they are working on this, but I doubt they will be able to get an in-depth and interesting faction system up and running by release, or even a few months after.

Now, all these could change and/or become better, but realize that this game is 3-4 months from release. Someone mentioned they are just "experimenting" with mechanics and gameplay features. I'm sorry, but you don't experiment with core game mechanics 4 months before your game comes out, that's just bad design policy.

I'd like to note that I'm not some disgruntled player or a Vanguard basher by nature. I put in a lot of time into the game, but there comes a point when you have to ask yourself, "do I want to be involved in another EQ2?" Where it takes months, if not years, to get the game to a solid and fun state? My answer to that question was no, and many other people felt the same way. I think Vanguard had a lot of potential that was squandered with poor development decisions and mismanagement. When Brad responds to his community asking where certain features are by saying that Sigil ran out of time and money, that shows a fundemental flaw within the company. I think Vanguard will be a mediocre game on launch, and hopefully it will one day reach its potential, but the outlook just isn't looking very good.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by Laerazi

I'm going to entirely disagree with this; and to anyone who takes this with a grain of salt, I suggest you read any of Hiram's previous posts regarding Vanguard and his affinity towards bashing it.

While I admit I am more anti-vanguard then pro-vanguard (and for all you bored people who never see the sun, my posting history will confirm, as Laerazi indicates) I feel that at least part of my post, was in defense of Vanguard, and it not having any of the core systems everyone is waiting on.

Vanguard is certainly not a "Horizons" or even an "Anarchy Online" (or many other titles who compete for top shit bag honors) but it most definately, by any definition you could possibly cook up, not a leap forward (read: third generation) by any means.

You are welcome to disagree, and I do look forward to your views once the NDA is actually lifted, however I am quite, nay supremely confident that the box sales will lean more towards my view of the game, then to lets say, the other end of the (omfg Vanguard is so motherfucking good I can't stand it) spectrum.

Perhaps the models will improve (one of my most major and consistent complaints) but I can tell you with a straight face, it's not the models overall, and it's not the models specifically that have soured me on Vanguard.

If it was so godamned good, we wouldn't be complaining, not to this scale anyway.

[Deris]

I have a feeling Vanguard is going to pull 500k+ the first few months (mostly the Roleplay/Tradeskill/LolWowisEZMOAD crowd) then drop to ~200k and remain there. It has potential ,and I have yet to see little, if any of it realized - hopefully some major changes happen.

That being said i'll still play WoW :P

[CylusSoulreaver]

Originally Posted by Lonin

Two of the top guilds (including the one that did the raid testing)

Originally Posted by Lonin

First off, the guild that tested Sigil's raid content and recently left Vanguard is now playing WoW, so they certainly aren't the typical "OMGZ WOW IS SO EASYMODE!!1" Vanguard players.

They killed a few higher level/dot mobs over the course of a few hours of a single day with classes, items and mechanics that are still in the process of being tuned. Try not to blow the "raid testing" out of proportion too much, tho

[Malakie Torsade]

Originally Posted by Deris

I have a feeling Vanguard is going to pull 500k+ the first few months (mostly the Roleplay/Tradeskill/LolWowisEZMOAD crowd) then drop to ~200k and remain there.

Sad thing is we'll probably never know the real population numbers, either. IIRC, it will be part of Sony's all-access pass, so they can skew sub numbers if they want (and will.)

[Erie]

Originally Posted by Malakie Torsade

Sad thing is we'll probably never know the real population numbers, either. IIRC, it will be part of Sony's all-access pass, so they can skew sub numbers if they want (and will.)

I'm sure they can tell what number of people use the pass that log into vanguard.