Lots of new Vanguard info released, plus videos & screenshots

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

Hell, am I the only one who actually likes the sound of that?

No, I'm pretty sure that IGE thinks it's a wonderful idea too.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by gremlinz273

No, what I was pointing out was that, once again, you are hyping and exagerating something to be far more than it is.

The permanent choices are for only a few classes and they are mostly cosmetic in nature, like whether you want your necro to look more like a ghost or a skeleton.

The discussion really turned more from Vanguard specific to the idea that permenant irreversible choices that a character must make are either good/bad.

Though the ones in Vanguard aren't as minor as you make them out to be, they also aren't anything drastic like talents in WoW. Well, not for all classes. The shaman totem/ monk style/ necro form are pretty different from each other, and balance is going to be a nightmare. Healer that can invis/stealth, summon and rez, snare and sow all in one class? Oh, with a pet too! And haste/slow? Yeah.. Rakurr ftw.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

The discussion really turned more from Vanguard specific to the idea that permenant irreversible choices that a character must make are either good/bad.

Though the ones in Vanguard aren't as minor as you make them out to be, they also aren't anything drastic like talents in WoW. Well, not for all classes. The shaman totem/ monk style/ necro form are pretty different from each other, and balance is going to be a nightmare. Healer that can invis/stealth, summon and rez, snare and sow all in one class? Oh, with a pet too! And haste/slow? Yeah.. Rakurr ftw.

The only irreversible choice that matters at this point is your starting class. And the only real balance issues is the inter-class balance.

If there is a problem it won't show up until the endgame and will be of the following example form: There are 4 defensive fighters (War, DK, Inq and Paladin) for all we know it maybe that in the lvl 50 raidgame only the Warrior is a decent tank for raiding -- and the Dreadknight and/or Paladin that thought he was a decent tank from 1-49 is now in the position of being put in a secondary role (maybe as bufffer/slower/3rd string quaterback/whatever -- I haven't played a pally and have no idea what they can do). This is somewhat similiar to the experience of a shadowpriest in WoW. Shadowpriest is viable in PvE from 1-59 then at sixty you're forced to respec.

The same scenario applies to healers, casters and (to a much less extent I would suspect) light fighters -- it maybe that as suggested a Blood Mage is a terrible raid healer and no raid will want one as a healer or as a caster (assuming its nukes are less than the arcane casters -- no clue). Whatever abilities that are permanent at this point aren't going to matter much in comparision to what raid role is going to be pigeonholed for you by the playerbase (and raiding necessity).

[Drtyrm]

The problem Asmadai claims doesn't exist happened in WoW. Priest racial spells. Poll Night Elf priests and find out how many would switch to dwarf around the time we were learning Onyxia and Molten Core. That's a decision that you made, you couldn't change, and turned out to be huge.

Absolutely blame Blizzard for having Fear Ward become such an important part of Alliance raiding. But don't think that Sigil is going to magically avoid similar pitfalls.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Drtyrm

The problem Asmadai claims doesn't exist happened in WoW. Priest racial spells. Poll Night Elf priests and find out how many would switch to dwarf around the time we were learning Onyxia and Molten Core. That's a decision that you made, you couldn't change, and turned out to be huge.

Absolutely blame Blizzard for having Fear Ward become such an important part of Alliance raiding. But don't think that Sigil is going to magically avoid similar pitfalls.

I play a Horde Priest. I've thrown the utter imbalanced shitstorm that is Fear Ward so far back into the recesses of my mind I don't even consider it to exist.

[Drtyrm]

Grats on your WotF selection. That wasn't a permanent choice that made a lasting difference. Care to address my point?

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally Posted by Drtyrm

Grats on your WotF selection. That wasn't a permanent choice that made a lasting difference.

I think most undead would agree with that statement.

[Plaeroma]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

I think most undead who never ever pvp would agree with that statement.

Fixed.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Drtyrm

Grats on your WotF selection. That wasn't a permanent choice that made a lasting difference. Care to address my point?

Ok, I play a Horde Priest, in a Horde Guild, who've done just fucking fine without Fear Ward. Would I switch to Alliance for a fucking Priest racial? No.

I made a Priest to be a Priest, not to resist Fear. Did racials determine my choice in the beginning? No.

Happy?

[Drtyrm]

I was being sarcastic. Obviously in those cases (WotF & Fear Ward), those permanent choices made significant differences. One in pvp, the other in pve.

Twobit is spot on. If your choice doesn't make much of a difference, then who cares what you choose? The real kicker from my WoW experience, is that no one knew the impact that racial choice would have down the road. Can Sigil make good design decisions in this regard? Guess we'll be able to discuss it when the NDA drops. Hah.

[Wizerud]

Originally Posted by Itzena

No, I'm pretty sure that IGE thinks it's a wonderful idea too.

I'm sure they'd like it a lot more if it was as easy to change as in WoW. To change, you need money. Don't have any money? Earn it or buy it. And so, more money for IGE and more money for Blizzard from all the farming bots they now have to ban (again) who will shortly be re-subscribing.

It all works out.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Drtyrm

I was being sarcastic. Obviously in those cases (WotF & Fear Ward), those permanent choices made significant differences. One in pvp, the other in pve.

Twobit is spot on. If your choice doesn't make much of a difference, then who cares what you choose? The real kicker from my WoW experience, is that no one knew the impact that racial choice would have down the road. Can Sigil make good design decisions in this regard? Guess we'll be able to discuss it when the NDA drops. Hah.

I don't specifically ever remember saying that permanent choices don't exist in WoW at all, I was talking about Talents. At any rate, racials are a permanent choice, and at no point during my ranting did I ever say I was against racials. I'm pretty indifferent to them, as obvious per my racial choice. I don't mind being a Horde Priest without Fear Ward. I know I can survive without it, albeit I may not be the best possible Priest. Poll me and ask if i'll reroll; the answer may shock you.

I'll stick to my point.

Most people are so obsessed with being the best of their class and not making a wrong permanent decision that they would intentionally reroll another character and/or force themselves to play a specific faction/race to merely get what they feel to be a 'leg up' on everyone else. The majority of all Priests being Dwarves proves this point. To those who actually did reroll for that 'leg up', I'm laughing at now, as it doesn't really help all that much anymore.

I, on the other hand could really care less, so based on my limited options, I chose Undead. Hell, I don't even PvP, so I didn't even choose Undead for WoTF.

Now, if they had given every Priest, regardless of Race or Faction a choice of whether or not they want Fear Ward, then your point might make a little more sense with what we were originally talking about. It's one thing to make a choice, it's an entirely different thing to convince yourself to play a specific race or faction for a racial spell; I shudder at the thought of people actually doing that.

[LadyVex]

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter what WoW_User_01 thinks about racials. The sad reality is in some MMOs you are given racial choices that are GENERALLY added for flavour and in reality become game breaking or change the way classes/race combos play, and that is unacceptable.

Continue ranting about how hardcore you are as a horde undead priest who would give up WoTF and doesn't need fear ward to get by, but you're just wasting text.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by LadyVex

It doesn't matter what WoW_User_01 thinks about racials. The sad reality is in some MMOs you are given racial choices that are GENERALLY added for flavour and in reality become game breaking or change the way classes/race combos play, and that is unacceptable.

Why is it unacceptable? Because you are afraid to suck a little more than someone else?

My point is that I WELCOME things like that which cause a variety amongst the classes. Down with this 'lets make everything equal for everyone. Gotta be fair to everybody.' bullshit rant. Who the fuck cares? If it bothers you that bad, then be one of the indecisive fucks that rerolls a character for that imaginary 'leg up'.

Game breaking for the initial release sure. It's nice to see how far this 'game breaking' mechanic is getting them now.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally Posted by Plaeroma

Fixed.

Not really, no. If you made your choice at release based on WotF you saw your racial become smaller and smaller and smaller to the point that while it may be still useful every once-in-a-while in PvE and more often in PvP, it's nothing like the racial you may have made your permanent choice for to begin with.