Lots of new Vanguard info released, plus videos & screenshots

[Bongk]

you must buy your gold than, cuz normal people like me cannot afford to repsec everytime they want to raid or PVP or even close.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Bongk

you must buy your gold than, cuz normal people like me cannot afford to repsec everytime they want to raid or PVP or even close.

I feel sorry for you then. Money has never really been that big of an issue for me in WoW. It's not hard to gain, and only takes a minimal amount of effort if you know what you are doing and where to go to get it.

[Saban]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

I feel sorry for you then. Money has never really been that big of an issue for me in WoW. It's not hard to gain, and only takes a minimal amount of effort if you know what you are doing and where to go to get it.

thats what everyone says and its such a bullshit statement.

[Plaeroma]

Farming money isn't hard, it's boring and tedious. Even a rogue in blues can farm like 30g an hour doing uldaman (hi2u alts I guess), but it's still shitty.

[Saban]

Vanguard + Fileplanet = gayyyyyyyyyyy

FilePlanet: Free Games, Downloads, Mods, Patches, Maps, Trailers, Demos & Betas

[Erie]

I'd prefer a system where you can reset talents/aa without spending gold. I'm not one for farming all the time. I'd much rather have an option given to you after a period of time you've spent online, like 10 days or so.

Though I don't think the ability/spell paths in Vanguard are that game breaking from what I read about them. Merely guessing based on what's been said about them.

[Laerazi]

Originally Posted by Saban

Vanguard + Fileplanet = gayyyyyyyyyyy

FilePlanet: Free Games, Downloads, Mods, Patches, Maps, Trailers, Demos & Betas

... Nice painting on the signup page at least; I'd half expect their PR dept. to put up some shitty screenshot with a red "Vanguard" logo stuck aimlessly on it. Notice how the boat is sailing full speed into a bunch of rocks, however... subliminal message?

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

In EQ, if you made a bad talent choice, there was no respec. You were stuck with it; you just accepted your bad choice, and then started out to fix it by grinding out more AA's.

Yeah, because AA's are so hard to get? Even in PoP you could get 1-3 an hour, depending on group and when the highest cost AA was like 9? It was just a grind session away, hell 2 or 3 grind sessions and you could increase your characters power exponentially. None of that changes the fact that in the end, everyone will end up the same, so while you maxed Charisma first, Joe Hardcore is maxing it last. There are NO choices in EQ so nothing is reversible or irreversible. The only thing that changes is preferred order of getting the most useful AA's.. you never had to say 'Okay, do I get increased stamina and Natural Durabilty or do I get increased crit damage and higher crit chance? The only decision was do I get stamina first and crits later or vice versa. If you can't see the difference in the two, then you are beyond hope and will likely enjoy Vanguard immensely... and you deserve to.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Saban

Vanguard + Fileplanet = gayyyyyyyyyyy

FilePlanet: Free Games, Downloads, Mods, Patches, Maps, Trailers, Demos & Betas

Early January? Looks like beta 5 could be starting then.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Yeah, because AA's are so hard to get? Even in PoP you could get 1-3 an hour, depending on group and when the highest cost AA was like 9? It was just a grind session away, hell 2 or 3 grind sessions and you could increase your characters power exponentially. None of that changes the fact that in the end, everyone will end up the same, so while you maxed Charisma first, Joe Hardcore is maxing it last. There are NO choices in EQ so nothing is reversible or irreversible. The only thing that changes is preferred order of getting the most useful AA's.. you never had to say 'Okay, do I get increased stamina and Natural Durabilty or do I get increased crit damage and higher crit chance? The only decision was do I get stamina first and crits later or vice versa. If you can't see the difference in the two, then you are beyond hope and will likely enjoy Vanguard immensely... and you deserve to.

Think more along the lines of when AA's came out, not when they became trivial to obtain. People planned out the order in which to get certain AA's. I really can't think of one person who ever spent 9 points on an ability, only to find out the ability blows total ass, to then say "Oh well, i'll just grind out more points later." Let me tell you I was sure as hell pissed when I did. That was precious time invested, completely wasted.

In EQ, did you let Warriors with different AA's main tank on raids? Of course you did, as whatever AA's they had really didn't make all that much of a difference.

Now, in WoW, find me a guild with a Fury or Arms spec'd main tank. Find me a guild that would risk their entire raid's survival on the shoulders of a tank who isn't spec'd properly to tank. There isn't one, and there is a reason behind that. In a game like WoW, where changing your specification is such an easy thing to do, you can create a giant differential between the different builds. If respec'ing wasn't available, i'd guarantee you that you wouldn't see that much of a difference in ability to tank between a Fury, Arms, and Prot spec'd Warrior. Sure, the Prot spec'd Warrior would always be better, but I guarantee you it wouldn't be by such a greater margin as it is now.

My overall point is, there is nothing for us to fear with having to make a permanent choice. Not even Brad would make a game wherein a permanent choice made is going to have a significant impact on your abilily to fufill your classes role. And hell, even if it did have a significant impact, i'm sure it would be clarified enough so you couldn't make a simple mistake based on ignorance or lack of information.

Either way, if you claim that EQ was void of any 'permanent choice that effects your character', and we've accepted that WoW is obviously void of the same 'permanent choice that effects your character', what is it exactly that makes you so convinced that it will be such a bad, or horribly executed plan? Are you that scared of having to be decisive on something?

[Twobit Whore]

The reasons have been covered and you did a good job making my case for me. No matter how minor some devs think it is, the players are going to find out differently. Unless you make it so minor (as in cosmetic only), then what's the point? This isn't the issue. You have faith in Brad to make the game perfect and no decision will ever matter.. but a decision that doesn't matter isn't really a decision.

EQ and moreso WoW have shown that things change, and when things change people need a way to adapt to those changes. So yes, Sigil could decide that if a class with a choice changes, then everyone gets reset, but then again.. they might not. You also have the problem of future content. Do you design content around the most common spec? Or do you design it for the generic spec and let the most common spec breeze through it while the oddballs struggle? Or are the decisions not going to be important enough?

Maybe you just have more faith in Brad than I do. You think he will make it so perfect that noone can screw up.. but if that is the case, then I do not see the reason to even have a choice. At least the increasing respec cost of WoW lets people try a couple and settle on their preferred.. and if all hell breaks loose then you can bite the bullet and spend 50g and fix it. Even DDO, the game based on the most widely known ruleset in the history of gaming has changed the game to allow for respec, because you know what? Shit happens. Vanguard will happen too.

[gremlinz273]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

but a decision that doesn't matter isn't really a decision.

Just like a problem that isnt really a problem isnt a fucking problem.

Another three pages wasted whining about a non issue.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by gremlinz273

Just like a problem that isnt really a problem isnt a fucking problem.

Another three pages wasted whining about a non issue.

Then don't read it. I know that was hard, but really, it works.

[gremlinz273]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Then don't read it. I know that was hard, but really, it works.

No, what I was pointing out was that, once again, you are hyping and exagerating something to be far more than it is.

The permanent choices are for only a few classes and they are mostly cosmetic in nature, like whether you want your necro to look more like a ghost or a skeleton.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

You have faith in Brad to make the game perfect and no decision will ever matter.. but a decision that doesn't matter isn't really a decision.

Wrong. I want the decision to matter. However, I don't think said decision should have game-breaking consequences, as it's a permanent decision. EQ2 has a perma-decision type feature similar to what i'm trying to say isn't a bad idea. The abilities you get from the decision aren't necessarily game-breaking or anything, but some are still worthwhile to get.

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

You also have the problem of future content. Do you design content around the most common spec? Or do you design it for the generic spec and let the most common spec breeze through it while the oddballs struggle? Or are the decisions not going to be important enough?

Solution to that problem? Design content. Why must new content be based on class builds in the first place? Why not generalize and create content? We all know the Holy Trinity in the MMO world: Tanking, Healing, and DPSing. Generalize around that, rather than specific builds for each. Plus, in Vanguards case, the game is entirely focused on group content+, so any newer content shouldn't have anyone of any spec breezing or struggling through it.

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Maybe you just have more faith in Brad than I do. You think he will make it so perfect that noone can screw up.. but if that is the case, then I do not see the reason to even have a choice. At least the increasing respec cost of WoW let's people try a couple and settle on their preferred.. and if all hell breaks lose then you can bite the bullet and spend 50g and fix it. Even DDO, the game based on the most widely known ruleset in the history of gaming has changed the game to allow for respec, because you know what? Shit happens. Vanguard will happen too.

I'm not asking him to make it so perfect that no one can screw up, I'm asking for it to be self-explanitory enough, so that people will make their own decisions, rather than just waiting to see what the popular members of each class will do, and then playing mimic. I hate seeing the cookie-cutter builds of WoW. No one really does their own thing, they do what everyone else does. At least this way, people might be encouraged to research and find out why they should make a class defining decision, rather than to just follow the crowd. It'll lead to a wiser playerbase, and a playerbase that's way more informed on the in's and out's of their class.

Plus, i'm not expecting Vanguard to be near as player-friendly as WoW currently is, but that's an entirely different argument for an entirely different thread.