Lots of new Vanguard info released, plus videos & screenshots

[kedwyn]

Originally Posted by Nairbog

wrong.

You are right. They'll get the ship turned around and fix the issues and get the performance up to par all before release. They'll do everything that every other developer has failed to do and to boot make it in plenty of time. Not too mention get it all done in a couple of months. Combat, crafting and diplomacy will all be equally fun spheres to advance in, 3 games in one!

No offense man but you are either stupid or haven't been around MMO's very long. Don't get me wrong if you like the game as is then all the more power to you, there will be people playing at release under the Sony's new MMO mediocrity banner known as the "Station Pass". I think I'm going to pass on Vanguard unless they knock my socks off with changes once the NDA drops. I think at best we'll get "mixed" reactions from testers at that time but i'm betting it will lean much more towards the bad than good.

We'll see according to Nino I belive they are dropping the NDA soon since this phase is supposed to be the shortest phase of the process. That means we can stop banging our heads against the wall sometime in January or February. Can the forums handle the influx?

Honestly I hope Vanguard does get it all turned around. We need some good MMO's to shake things up a fair bit. Nothing would please me more than to see Vanguard, LOTR and Conan pull 500k - 1 mil subs each and keep them all happy for ever and ever amen. With all the negativity, still reported low beta server numbers and constant negativity from testers I'm certainly not going to hold my breath. I saw the same pattern of events for AO and SWG, two of the more disapointing releases of 2nd gen games.

[Bongk]

Can't use common sense like that Kedwyn, what are you thinking. You either have to be a raving fanboi who sees nothing bad no matter what or a frothing at the mouth hater who thinks everything sucks.

Common sense and real world experience are for the weak minded!

[Dashal]

Originally Posted by kedwyn

Its not going to change much by Q1 so what you see is pretty much what you get aside from some bug fixes and perhaps a few tweaks but the core game is in.

To:

Originally Posted by kedwyn

You are right. They'll get the ship turned around and fix the issues and get the performance up to par all before release. They'll do everything that every other developer has failed to do and to boot make it in plenty of time. Not too mention get it all done in a couple of months. Combat, crafting and diplomacy will all be equally fun spheres to advance in, 3 games in one!

Talk about moving the goalposts...

Which is it: not much will change? or everything will be 100% different, better, and super terrific so everyone loves it and will bring about world peace?

To say not much will change is first and foremost unknowable, but if we want to go by the past 2 months it's also illogical. Back on October 15th here's what I (might) have written about this game (if I was in beta =p):

1. Newbie area is mediocre. Good performance, some interesting quests but no real draw so far. Some good animations, some bad.

2. Getting out of newbie area into Khal is extremely laggy. Khal crashes... a lot. World is awesome looking, love that you can see so far and no "zones" to fence you in.

3. Lomshire is better than Khal in terms of performance, but not great by any means. Hitching is obscene by crafting tables. Wilderness areas is very playable right now, good framerates but some hitching there as well.

4. Chunks 10-20 seconds.

5. No Thestra, no Kojan.

6. Many races unplayable including: Orc, Goblin, Half Giant, Half Elf, High Elf, Raki, Vulmane, Dwarf etc.

7. Dungeons are a bit laggy with tons of people, but playable.

Now, that has all turned around 100% (or so I hear..). All continents open, all races playable and look way better than before. Classes are half way through revamps. Lag is a million times better and I'm getting mid 20's FPS in Khal whereas before I'd be happy with 8 before it crashed. Outside city FPS is up to mid 40's for me in many areas. Hitching is almost non existant in many areas and vastly improved in most areas. Combat is still undergoing changes but is better than when I wrote that by far (IMO). Newbie starting areas for Kojan and Thestra are great, many races starts are very engaging, interesting, unique and fun.

So to say nothing will change much makes no sense at all. I'll have more to say when the NDA drops but for now that should be enough of an example.

[Soygen]

Originally Posted by Dashal

Talk about moving the goalposts...

Which is it: not much will change? or everything will be 100% different, better, and super terrific so everyone loves it and will bring about world peace?

I'm fairly certain he was being sarcastic.

[Miele]

Originally Posted by kedwyn

...

Honestly I hope Vanguard does get it all turned around. We need some good MMO's to shake things up a fair bit. Nothing would please me more than to see Vanguard, LOTR and Conan pull 500k - 1 mil subs each and keep them all happy for ever and ever amen. With all the negativity, still reported low beta server numbers and constant negativity from testers I'm certainly not going to hold my breath. I saw the same pattern of events for AO and SWG, two of the more disapointing releases of 2nd gen games.

I wish only that MMOs will move away forever from the EQ-WoW model and try something new, AoC seems to give it a try with their combat system, hell knows if it's gonna be any good/fun.

Vanguard main problem for me it's that everything I read, hear and see in the game can be resumed with "same old shit, over and over: tank+heal+dps woo fucking hoo!". Crafting and diplomacy are gimmicks, extra things to do maybe, which only a small percentage of the population will do deeply (unless needed to kill stuff that drops loot).

Performance aside (which will be a killer for many), standard fantasy setting, with standard fantasy MMO mechanics, with all the "we are devs, we know better than you, so you can't kite/ch/fd pull/add_feature here and you can only root+nuke or tank+dps" are... no, should be a thing of the past.
Did someone really think that making chairs for 400 hours to "max out" is really fun? Ok, to each their own...

EQ was a MMORPG and it had many flaws, but it gave a lot of freedom to players, every subsequent MMO removed as many "unintended features" as possible, transforming the gameplay in totally predictable patterns. No trains, leashed mobs, gazillion of hotkeys etc. were just hiding the fact you can't do shit but A or B, C is not even an option in today's MMOs.

Even wow that has a superb gameplay, once analyzed deeply is a lot more developer-limited than EQ was. Too many artificial limits, non existant room for mistakes in raid (those crazy recoveries ala EQ won't happen, because there are no tools to make them happen) and to fucking hell the goddamned class balance: make a damn PvP ruleset, totally different from PvE, so we get to play one and don't get pissed for changes due to the other.

I'm sorry I took a tangent here, but I surely hope Vanguard will be the last game ever to rehash the same old stuff, once again, with different textures on it. This been said, I wish vanguard well, if they can cash in a lot, maybe next Sigil game will be a totally different thing.

[Erie]

Vanguard main problem for me it's that everything I read, hear and see in the game can be resumed with "same old shit, over and over: tank+heal+dps woo fucking hoo!". Crafting and diplomacy are gimmicks, extra things to do maybe, which only a small percentage of the population will do deeply (unless needed to kill stuff that drops loot).

Do you realize every rpg falls into the category "tank+heal+dps?" It's pretty much the basics of an rpg. I can't really take your post seriously if you just hate rpg's altogether.

Edit: I guess I don't see that as a main problem.

[Slick Willey]

Originally Posted by tad10

Are you also suggesting that the game will for sure, cross-my-heart-hope-to-die, come out in Q1?

"This game needs to ship in Q1 2007, and it will." -- Brad McQuade.

[Nairbog]

Originally Posted by kedwyn

You are right. They'll get the ship turned around and fix the issues and get the performance up to par all before release. They'll do everything that every other developer has failed to do and to boot make it in plenty of time. Not too mention get it all done in a couple of months. Combat, crafting and diplomacy will all be equally fun spheres to advance in, 3 games in one!

I never said they'd be able to fix all the problems. However, if you've really been in beta you'd realize how fast things are picking up. To say "what you see is what you get" at this point is ridiculous, they still have 3 months, or more if it's delayed which I hope it will be. I think VG's main strength is the size of the world and variety of solid content, and since they will be opening many areas up until release, what you see is definitely not what you get.

My friend told me that performance has been increasing alot lately too, with the latest patch giving many some huge improvements in performance. VG is not another AO/SWG, to make the comparison is ridiculous. SWG/AO had virtually no interesting content at release, VG should have an insane amount of solid adventuring content from what I've heard, though it may not all be force fed like in WoW/LoTRO since it is more spread out.

[Twobit Whore]

'Solid' and 'interesting' is obviously subjective, as many people I have talked to feel it is very generic and uninspired. Sure, there are a few gems, but as a whole, it is nothing outstanding. And yeah, it is 'force fed' ala WoW, as everything is a quest. Do you have to do them? Well, no.. but the exp from not doing them makes it an absolute chore, especially if you want to solo. Yeah yeah 'not a game for soloing'.. it's yet to be determined how well that goes over.

[r.gun]

I'm not going to comment on the finished product, or whether or not Sigil will be able to make the game "good" by release. What I will say, though, is that my... friend... stopped playing beta about two months ago and just started playing again with the release of Beta 4 and pretty much everything in the game has improved drastically. If thats any indication of how the game will turn out then my hopes have been lifted.

Thats just my two cents though, I know you chronic VG haters really don't care.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Slick Willey

"This game needs to ship in Q1 2007, and it will." -- Brad McQuade.

Color me skeptical. Q1 (March) made sense when TBC was being released in Nov -- that gave folks 3-4 months or so to blow through TBC content before picking up a new game. With TBC coming out Jan 16 -- Feb and Mar are too close to the release. They're better off with an April/May release to give potential VG players time to blow throught the TBC content, get bored again and start looking for something new.

That being said if it does ship in Q1 I fearlessly predict that it will ship no sooner than March 28th (last tuesday in March).

[Slick Willey]

Originally Posted by tad10

Color me skeptical. Q1 (March) made sense when TBC was being released in Nov -- that gave folks 3-4 months or so to blow through TBC content before picking up a new game. With TBC coming out Jan 16 -- Feb and Mar are too close to the release. They're better off with an April/May release to give potential VG players time to blow throught the TBC content, get bored again and start looking for something new.

That being said if it does ship in Q1 I fearlessly predict that it will ship no sooner than March 28th (last tuesday in March).

In a fantasy world, you would be absolutely right. In the real world, however, you need to pay your employees money to work on the game, and all indications (including statements by Brad) are that Sigil is running out of cash and so they need to release the game to get subscription dollars to continue working on the game.

Without going into detail, I will give my fearless predictions:

(1) The game will be "playable" on release.
(2) It won't be as "polished" as WoW was when it was released, and will be more similar to EQ2 at its launch as far as "polish" goes.
(3) 350K subscribers within 3 months of release.

Personally, I can't wait for the NDA to drop so we can get some real discussion on the game. From what I've seen, there is actually lot of good things going for the game and the dev team has made great strides in improving it over the last few months. I don't think there is much dispute, though, that Sigil bit off more than they could chew.

[Saban]

i hear beta invites are being sent out again, where the fuck is mine?

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

'Solid' and 'interesting' is obviously subjective, as many people I have talked to feel it is very generic and uninspired.

'Generic' and 'unispired' are obviously subjective as many people I've talked to feel it is very solid and interesting. See I can do it too!

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by tad10

'Generic' and 'unispired' are obviously subjective as many people I've talked to feel it is very solid and interesting. See I can do it too!

Exactly. The trick is how many of each side there are. My anecdotal evidence suggests that there are more of the 'generic' views than the 'amazing' views.