Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Gecko]

Of course, since you've said how terrible it is over and over and it wasn't ready for release, you certainly didn't buy it at launch though?

[Horse]

Originally Posted by James

It was a flaming pile of shit used and abused by the worst people possible that you could have policing your playerbase. They were uninformed, idealistic, sloppy, disgruntled, angry at life in general, or all of the above. It was a system easily corrupted and implemented even worse. To become a guide, they asked you questions like "What's the NPC that's alive for three fractions of a second in the single most unvisited, remote part of the online world of EverQuest" -- and they fucking meant it.

Pretty sure I'd rather get fucked by a donkey than play in another pile of shit guide system.

I was a guide! Still have the guide handbooks, the tests, everything. I'm pretty awesome though so I know you're not talking about me.

The guide system also changed towards the end of POP, where the guides were expected to be more like actors, doing r-r-r-r-r-roleplaying events and spreading cheer and good will across the lands.

One time I pretended I was a robot and allowed people to store tales of their adventures inside of me, like a neverending story! It ended up being like this:


"Upon encountering the deadliest of foes, Flazspiggot crouched palms sweaty and resting upon the trigger of his automaton doomsday device Gay faggot,
ur pretty reatarded. I took the sword and killed this shit. Eric is queer and then I ate the pussy"



Another time we turned into ogres and I left a random paladin to babysit my little babies! They ran amok and almost died to snakes!

[Fayvren]

A lot of those bug and/or patch problems could be fixed, but there always seems to be a chain of people who want things done right and those who are just there for a paycheck who really didn't care much.

Scott asked my guild to test some raid content for them when in EQ2, and we would find literally game/zone breaking bugs which I would send them info back about which never fucking got fixed. Sometimes the fix was as simple as moving spawns to a new place (hi2ufroglok raid zone) so they wouldn't get stuck under the world in zone geometry and screw up the entire script and then break the whole zone and lock you out for days (goddamn that was so retarded). Same exact thing happened when we beta tested their Bloodline Chronicles xpac, and in each case it was like a month and a half from when we tested it, *with their devs on hand with us*, to when it got shipped live and was never ever fixed (ie, it was in the same shape as it was when we first tested it out).

It's infuriating when we would take weekend time (when we didn't raid) to help them get their shit straight and they would just say "oh well", and ship it broken anyways. Was a complete waste of our time, and it was obvious that Mr. R.U. didn't give two shits about their raid content and was a complete buffoon (dude tried to say we exploited right in front of his face, on the test server doing them a fucking favor...we had a good laugh about that).

You definitely need people in charge who hold the game to the same standard that say, the lead producer does (if they care like Hartsman did), because you end up with the half polished turds getting sent out the door that we had to deal with. Whoever is in charge of giving the green light for patching/shipping needs to be completely anal about making sure bugs get fixed. I can pretty much guarantee you our experience was somehow a giant clusterfuck of a chain of command getting the bugs sent to the right people, and somewhere along the way it ended up getting swept under the rug.

This is a huge part of the problem. The testing and fixes just never happen. Considering the average zone can be devoured by a dedicated group in less than a day, most of your most glaring bugs should take 1-2 walk throughs of the game to notice and fix. I find broken quests to be utterly ridiculous. Is it really hard to have a comprehensive list of quests and suggest that beta testers walk through them 2x in a day. With AOC u have the whole list of quests, and list of completed quests. Get 18 people into a zone, queue them for all the quests available and at the end of the day check to see if all of them were done by all your testers (internal or beta) If they weren't guess what, the ones that had 1-2 completions are probably screwed.

I still play AOC and enjoy it for what it is, but so many of the issues just seem so plainly obvious since day 1 that its just negligence or not caring to have them in release.

The insane number of problems that MMOs have in some pretty basic things makes me think that the development process of MMOs may be flawed. I can understand AI code that is weak / faulty network code trying to handle hundreds of users at a time. I can even understand client crashes due to different hardware configurations etc. But some of the other stuff slips through because at some point someone must have said "disregard that for now, we'll fix it later."

[Rythonn]

Originally Posted by Fayvren

This is a huge part of the problem. The testing and fixes just never happen.

Pretty much... time and time again we see bugs that get reported on test or in beta that continue through to the Live game. There is a serious lack of communication inside these gaming companies. I keep hoping future companies would learn this but they never do.

[gnomad]

The insane number of problems that MMOs have in some pretty basic things makes me think that the development process of MMOs may be flawed. I can understand AI code that is weak / faulty network code trying to handle hundreds of users at a time. I can even understand client crashes due to different hardware configurations etc. But some of the other stuff slips through because at some point someone must have said "disregard that for now, we'll fix it later."

Which is exactly why I previously used the example of our Production Control people and building Aircraft Carriers at NGSB-NN in the QA discussion.

When you break it down there really isn't much difference. You have an extremely complex system with many, many , many parts and systems that have to function as a whole. We have numerous checks and balances in place along with a plethora of metrics to track production. Of course we are spending a cool $6 Billion or so but the parallels are there.

The only way to fix the problems as I see it are to either outsource or hire in some people that are Production oriented and are anal about their attention to detail.

Pretty much... time and time again we see bugs that get reported on test or in beta that continue through to the Live game. There is a serious lack of communication inside these gaming companies. I keep hoping future companies would learn this but they never do

I don't know that it is lack of communication as much as a bunch of companies that are being run by fawnbois, ECPI level programmers, bloggers, junior execs fresh from business school with all their untested theories, Sports Figures (had to get that dig in there )etc. This is a whole IT sector wide problem anyway.

The saying has been for years to never hire someone over 40 years old because they pose a threat with their knowledge and experience level to all the know nothings in charge. Scott Adams makes this painfully clear in Dilbert.

Anyway as long as the industry only hires insiders, "golden boys", fawnbois, etc... then you will find that shit begets shit and it won't change.

[Agraza]

Originally Posted by Genjiro

Scott asked my guild to test some raid content for them when in EQ2, and we would find literally game/zone breaking bugs which I would send them info back about which never fucking got fixed. Sometimes the fix was as simple as moving spawns to a new place (hi2ufroglok raid zone) so they wouldn't get stuck under the world in zone geometry and screw up the entire script and then break the whole zone and lock you out for days (goddamn that was so retarded). Same exact thing happened when we beta tested their Bloodline Chronicles xpac, and in each case it was like a month and a half from when we tested it, *with their devs on hand with us*, to when it got shipped live and was never ever fixed (ie, it was in the same shape as it was when we first tested it out).

Yes. This. If you're having someone test it why ignore them? We went through this during bloodlines etc. as well to find most issues weren't fixed upon launch. That was such an awful period of the game.

[Noah EQ2]

Originally Posted by Jait

It's more than that kcxiv, but you're right.

The fact is if you can release a game that's so perfect it doesn't need patching, it's going to be a closed game with completely linear progression that becomes stale faster than you can say "Tic-tac-toe". We're not talking about single-player games here, this is the MMO forum. And MMO's are never, ever perfect. No one plays a single-player game (no matter how perfect) 40 hours a week for 9 years.

Build open systems. This is why EQ was great. They gave us tools, we the players turned it into techniques. Kiting, FD pulling, Chain-pets, AE groups, you name it. This was only possible from an "open system". Today, most Devs mitigate this by forcing us into 'closed abilities' which can't be used beyond their original purpose. You want "perfect"? There's always Chess, Checkers, etc..

I want a game that patches. I want a game that makes mistakes. I want a team who understands this and appropriately adjusts to the situation. Otherwise you're just cloning shit that's already been done, and we have enough of that already. There's absolutely no way to make a game with fresh mechanics that can be fully tested in alpha/beta phase. Even a year later people will figure out things you never could've anticipated. This is what makes a good system, and eventually a good game. Anyone who says otherwise needs to get the fuck out of their Ivory Tower and start releasing games to prove it.

Good post about how today games do not allow for "immergent gameplay". EQ1 allowed for it because everyone was learning what this new type of game was all about.

Giving some freedom back to the players would be great. Tweeking and adjusting to how your MMO grows is better than trying to force it into the square peg it was "originally" planned to go.

WoW has been somewhat flexible. Who thought Druids would be great tanks? Paladins great healers? Priests upper end dps? This happened because they let the game grow vs trying keep it what they initially intended. Eq did this with kiting, FD pulls, etc etc.

The next great game will embrace "live developement" and not try to force the game into the planned direction but play off its strengths that show up after launch.

[Fog]

How many MMORPGs have been produced? 90% of everything is shit, and games are no exception. There are less MMOs than other games, since it requires more money and commitment, and as a result there are less good ones.

[Monsoon]

Originally Posted by Noah EQ2

Good post about how today games do not allow for "immergent gameplay". EQ1 allowed for it because everyone was learning what this new type of game was all about.

Giving some freedom back to the players would be great. Tweeking and adjusting to how your MMO grows is better than trying to force it into the square peg it was "originally" planned to go.

WoW has been somewhat flexible. Who thought Druids would be great tanks? Paladins great healers? Priests upper end dps? This happened because they let the game grow vs trying keep it what they initially intended. Eq did this with kiting, FD pulls, etc etc.

The next great game will embrace "live developement" and not try to force the game into the planned direction but play off its strengths that show up after launch.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. The freedom and flexibility of gameplay was what was so exhilarating and attractive in EQ1. Fan websites about strategy and guides popped up all over the internet from rabidly enthusiastic players, just because of the sheer possibilities in the world of Norrath and its dozen or so classes. The obvious tradeoff is more headache from the devs as they react and tune in response to player behavior, but that is what keeps the game alive, breathing, organic.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by gnomad

Which is exactly why I previously used the example of our Production Control people and building Aircraft Carriers at NGSB-NN in the QA discussion.

When you break it down there really isn't much difference. You have an extremely complex system with many, many , many parts and systems that have to function as a whole. We have numerous checks and balances in place along with a plethora of metrics to track production. Of course we are spending a cool $6 Billion or so but the parallels are there.

The only way to fix the problems as I see it are to either outsource or hire in some people that are Production oriented and are anal about their attention to detail.

With the aircraft carrier you do have some senior engineers that oversee the entire ship's construction and know how X works with Y and how Z works with both of those. These are the guys that run around constantly making sure that all of the people building their smaller pieces are doing so correctly so that those smaller pieces fit with the larger picture. Of course those senior engineers spent a LONG time planning the construction of the ship, testing the stresses and other issues in simulations and with cold hard math, and they spent ages drawing up detailed blueprints which those smaller groups use to build their components.

I agree, this is exactly how a MMORPG's development should work. The pre-planning stage must be extremely involved and long before you ever write your first blip of code you should have a complete blueprint of a entire workable game ready to now be built. And those people that spent all that time creating those blueprints and the game architecture should be those same people that now oversee the creation of the game, making sure that each segment of the games coding is being done correctly so that it merges with the other areas of the game.

Everyone working on the game does not need to know the whole picture but you better have some hands on people that do know what the finished product is supposed to look and play like right when you start coding and what it will take to create that final product. Those people should not be sitting at a desk doing their own coding, their whole job should be overseeing the coding done by the other people, checking stuff to make sure a piece of code works with other stuff being done. They should be total Quality Control.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Noah EQ2

Good post ..

Very slippery slope. The vast majority of 'freedom' to expand in EQ was due to bugs and exploits. While I agree that players should be given tools and told "Go nuts" it should be because you're creatively using the rope arrow from the last might and magic game or something, not because you discovered that if you spam a /sit hotkey you can warp across the map without anything being able to hit you.

That's why mentioning EQ is a mish-mash. You had some creative ideas such as root-nuking and charm-burning. On the other hand you had exploits-turned-legit once Verant figured out what we were up to (feign death/kiting). Then you outright exploits (pathing, forcing zone crashes to respawn bosses, etc...) yet they happened so often nobody gave a shit (Hey Kinuvien, explain again how you got 18 Aten Ha Ra loots in just 2 weeks..)

Then you had a schlew of borderline sploits that were based on what mood the GM was in that day. Shooting arrows at Yelinak earned our entire guild a warning until it was overturned a few days later. Splitting tormax/bugging out Vulak/etc...exploits or creative abuse of zone mechanics?

So yeah, it's borderline. Paladins in WoW AE tanking 40+ mobs at a time is definitely not something the founding fathers figured we'd end up doing but it's pretty much not an exploit. On the other hand, using my snowman disguise to prevent taking falling damage during the Anub'Arak fight apparently was.

[Jait]

Of course it's a slippery slope, that was part of my point /bonk But I'll give you the + anyway for bringing up a good counter.

In short, it's always about moderation. No need to go overboard and give people the most basic exploitive skills imaginable. But we've gone entirely in the other direction. For example, there's no game today that has an "open system" whatsoever. Or at least I'm not aware of it. Games today use completely closed abilities that can't be used beyond their originally developed intent. You're totally locked in. You have these buttons with animations, but when you really break it down there's nothing to those buttons. This button does 500 dmg, that button does 700, that button stuns, this button taunts, etc... They think of clever names and animations for these buttons, but that's all they really do. You can't use them in tandem with other abilities to manipulate world-mechanics. Every game developed seems to want to follow that, and thus avoid any problems they bring. And you're right, they bring quite a bit. But isn't it worth it, rather than playing in a box? What new mechanics derived from spells/skills invented entirely by players have come about in the 9 years since EQ? In 99 we invented Kiting, FD pulling, AE groups, chain-pets, chain-healing, etc..etc.. None of that was intended, and frankly scared developers and forced them to work harder, and make a better game. Today, you press a button and it "does exactly what it says on the tin".

We need to start moving back into that direction was the point I was trying to make, versus, trying to make a MMO that wouldn't need balance or patching. We also need to learn from the lessons without saying, "Well fuck it, lets take the easiest path." EQ2 uses Apprentice->Adept->Master spell levels, to seperates men from boys. It's loot-centric rather than skill-centric. Whereas I'd like to go back to the player who's refined their abilities through experience as the best. Otherwise we're heading towards MMO's where you're ability to "whack-a-mole" is all the skill required.

[Zehn - Vhex]

I don't think it will work in a massive setting anytime soon at least. At least any game with a focus on PvP. Look at the massive bitching about Druids and Lifebloom in arena's and pillar humping. We pray to god that was unintended and that some day it will get nerfed. Or discipline priests and the "oops what happened to my mana?" button.

Quad-kiting was fine in EQ because honestly, who were you hurting? The other wizard that wanted to quad-kite maybe? The vagina of all the rogues who couldn't solo?

By contrast in WoW...well...reckoning bomb anyone?

As a player I appreciate being able to push the limits of what exactly I can pull off with my given abilities. A lot of the limit comes in the form of PvP (using rocket boots and slowfall cape to get on top of the blacksmith in Arathi Basin for example). I also am willing to accept that they may not last forever (wall-climbing) because of the potential for abuse.

I honestly don't believe we're at a point where there's no player freedom left. That's the cry of people like Dumar who have no clue what the shit they're talking about. You can still be really fucking creative in WoW. Using Thunder Strike to push a rooted mob out of his room and break an encounter and get free loots (hi2u Itraer Vius!)? No. But stacking mages/warlocks and setting a record, what, 5 minute m'uru kill is what Drow got?

There's still enough room to budge. And it's at the point where we can feel confident that if we can do it, it's not an exploit.

But then again some people enjoyed testing new strats in EQ and praying to god it wasn't an exploit. Mix and match I suppose.

I strayed a bit off point but you get the idea. That kind of freedom will stay relegated to single player games because your actions hurt no one but yourself. But finding some way to cheese or gimp the game in an MMO, especially one with such a heavy focus on PvP?

[Fayvren]

I think when people talk about freedom, what they really miss is the 'chaos' of the games. That's pretty much what stood out about UO and EQ back in the day. Nearly everything was chaotic. Just think about trains in EQ for instance, or the insane number of things in UO. Dungeons as they opened up were the epitome of chaos. When one group wiped there was a chance they could accidentally clear out the entire zone.

Another defining characteristic of these games were that players you didnt even want to play with would have a significant effect on your gameplay. The idiot in your zone could ruin your day. The other guild's raid times effected you if you wanted to race for a boss etc. If you think about it, half the challenge in Everquest for instance was really the other players/guilds, not the boss encounters.

Nowadays everything is much more controlled. Things are broken down into discrete encounters where developers can tailor the game to give you the experience they desire. Instances, the way pulls are now handled and can be reset in almost all games etc, are the consequences of trying to control and direct the gaming experience. It's not good or bad, just rather a matter of taste + philsophy.

Outside of PVP, WoW and many of the newer MMOs really dont differ much from playing Baldur's gate or Neverwinter nights. Gather a group of friends and go beat the encounters / story. The only thing thats really different is the time commitment. Developers design the game with a story + expeirence in mind and funnel players towards it. From a CS / marketing perspective its probably infinitely easier to control and manage this type of system.

[Agraza]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Quad-kiting was fine in EQ because honestly, who were you hurting? The other wizard that wanted to quad-kite maybe? The vagina of all the rogues who couldn't solo?

I was 3 boxing up alts in some Velious zone I can't recall the name of, hunting the walrus, and this douchebag druid came along to tie up half of the spawn with his quad kiting. I moved since he was being a dick, I didn't have the time to win my spot, and there was plenty of shit to kill, but I wanted to hunt the damn walrus. From that moment forth I despised quad kiting. Much better was them using charmed animals in Tactics or wherever they could. Much <3 for charm killing.