Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

No one really claims SoE or anyone did truly anything unethical (Other than that pile SWG, but we won't even go there, heh) unless it relates to an expansion. Sleepers Tomb, Vex Thal, etc.

Alchemy? Unless I'm remembering wrong, that was release.

[Moontayle]

The argument here is that SoE simply screwed up by keeping their mouths shut. If they had been as up front and honest about things that were added in late as Blizzard, then this conversation apparently wouldn't exist.

[Kaxmax]

It's a step beyond that though, SOE didn't keep their mouth's shut. In some cases they flat out said something was working when in retrospect it clearly wasn't even in the game yet.

I don't have the anti-SOE hardon of Neric or Utnayan, but I think that's the point Ut is trying to make.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

It's a step beyond that though, SOE didn't keep their mouth's shut. In some cases they flat out said something was working when in retrospect it clearly wasn't even in the game yet.

I don't have the anti-SOE hardon of Neric or Utnayan, but I think that's the point Ut is trying to make.

Yep, that's exactly the point I am trying to make. Be open and honest so people do not waste their time trying to figure out something that doesn't exist, and I have no problem. At least those players know so they can do something else in the game. As it stood, Ester the Tester flat out said Plane of Mischief was working as intended when players were wondering what do with cards dropping from mobs - when they clearly didn't have the loot table finished, didn't have the card combine NPC in RV, and 4 months later it pops up with the data being funneled in at the same time. Those people wasted 4 months trying to figure out something that was impossible.

Repeat that a couple times.

That is what Blizzard has NOT done.

[Spyryt]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

...World of Warcraft: Shipped without raid content. Didn't lie after launch and said it would be in game when it wasn't. Patched it in for free instead of charging for it (And any other company would have charged - don't tell me they wouldn't have) and didn't watch as players wasted months of time trying to figure out shit that didn't exist because it lengethend sub revenue.

Apparently you forgot our last discussion on this topic. EQ2 had the same thing happen when they released their last expansion and did not charge for the two high-end zones they opened up a couple weeks later. You have been posting sanely recently and this is just one slip so maybe I am being anal in pointing it out but I feel its warranted to counteract the 100s of posts of crap we have had to endure.

[Utnayan]

I would say there is a major difference in two high end raid zones in an expansion, and the following:

Molten Core
ZG
ZF
AQ 20
AQ 40
World event based on AQ
Battle grounds
PvP Honor system
Black Wing Lair
Naxx

What I am saying right here is that if you combine those zones and events, with any other company they would have just said, "Tough... We didn't get those in retail" and sell all that as a high end raiding expansion.

[FohMD]

A gaming company on the east coast?

[Asmadai]

SoE was more of a 'when expansion time comes, we'll give you a continent worth of shit to do every 2 years', wherein Blizzard is a 'we'll give you a shitload to do patched in over a period of 2 years'.

SoE would sell their end of it as a high end expansion, as it's giving alot to do (albeit maybe not fully functional lot to do) all at once, wherein WoW's is free as it's slowly fed to the playerbase. Not saying either way is wrong really; it's two different ways to get new content out to the masses.

Now that's not to say I fully agree with EQ2's way of charging a smaller amount for content, but even though they do charge, it doesn't really bother me all that much. I mean it's hard for me to tell someone "no I can't give you $10" to someone whom i've paid over a thousand dollars in subscription fees to over the years.

Things get so 'ehh' though when it comes down to calling one right, and one wrong.

[Rythonn]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

I would say there is a major difference in two high end raid zones in an expansion, and the following:

Molten Core
ZG
ZF
AQ 20
AQ 40
World event based on AQ
Battle grounds
PvP Honor system
Black Wing Lair
Naxx

What I am saying right here is that if you combine those zones and events, with any other company they would have just said, "Tough... We didn't get those in retail" and sell all that as a high end raiding expansion.

Right but without those WoW had no high end game at all. So they kind of had to add that stuff or lose alot of people. And you forgot Dire Maul and Mara but those and MC where ready before release just not finished testing.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Rythonn

Right but without those WoW had no high end game at all. So they kind of had to add that stuff or lose alot of people. And you forgot Dire Maul and Mara but those and MC where ready before release just not finished testing.

Totally understand they had to add that. But remember my biggest point made is unethical behavior regarding that content and the patching process being used to support it. If SOE had been honest about zones not finished in expansions, told the player base, instead of lying, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. If Blizzard ever does that, I would be just as upset.

[Bruen]

Hasn't there been an (or maybe a couple) incident(s) involving patches including things to track activity and programs being run or some such? Didn't the patches also fail to include an accept/deny option or even a warning about what you were downloading. Seems a bit unethical to me, and I know there was a big uproar about it. Wasn't the game WoW?

It's been forever so I am honestly a bit unsure. Not to mention I quit WoW long before the event occured because I played before they patched in their endgame. After reaching level 60 I was beyond bored. Despite all the flaws and greif people had with EQ I never felt pushed into quitting. WoW did that with an unimagined quickness.

[Asmadai]

When I picture WoW and EQ, I see two people sitting at a desk.

One claims he'll have his stuff ready by the project due date, but come due date, only parts of the project are complete. If you ask him about the incompleteness, he'll tell you 'oh it's complete; i'm serious.'

The other acknowledges the fact that there is a due date, but flat out tells you he won't have the project complete by then. Slowly, after the project was already due, he brings the completed numbers and pie graphs that were missing to the table.

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I really can't tell which one i'd hate more. I guess it all comes down to how bad you hate being lied to. I don't mind it all that much; not near as much as some. Blizzard was upfront sure, but I wouldn't say that 'truth' outweighed 'incompleteness' here.

SoE lied about the completeness of their own product, but even thru the examples i've seen, and the examples i've personally experienced, it was like, 1 or 2 zones every expansion that they lied about? And lets not forget, where YOU were in the game really affects the judgement here.

Take Velious for example. The only people who were really hurting from the ST and PoM lies were the high end raiding guilds. I think there was about 3 on my server all throughout Velious that could even last 5 minutes in those zones. From the view of the server, Sony lied to us 3 raiding guilds. The other people on the server could really care less, as the zones they can do were working just fine.

Now think of WoW - The 'endgame' crowd on here didn't even have ANYTHING to do until they patched in MC. We were pretty much handed the 5-10 man zones, and told 'have fun until we can finish the rest'. But this is ok?

Like I said, it comes down to how getting lied to truly makes you feel. However, regardless of ethics, both companies fucked up imo.

[Ngruk]

Regardless of the examples and opinions the bottom line is it comes down to what you believe in as a company, and what you stand for. If you are a company founded on integrity, principle, respect and accountability you will be seen as such by anyone not possessing blind hatred for you.

That's not to indict anyone out there, because in the two examples being thrown around I have a ton of respect for both companies.

They've both made mistakes, they've both, imo, done things differently than I would have, but it's their companies.

I don't think either one has set out to screw their customers, ever. I think they both try and do what's best for themselves at every turn, with as little ramifications to their customers as possible.

The bottom line is that I, as a customer, have the ultimate say in how they run their companies. If I disagree, they don't get my money. If they make enough people dislike them, or disagree with how they practice their business, then they become irrelevant or go away.

Neither of them has done that. EQ2 has maintained a pretty consistent customer base and Blizzard is big enough that booting 59k customers for infractions against their users agreement was an easy thing to do.

[Draz]

god, here comes Ut again fagging up another post. Ban this idiot already.

[Rythonn]

Originally Posted by Draz

god, here comes Ut again fagging up another post. Ban this idiot already.

Actually he has been very civil and carrying on a normal conversation. So yeah...