T3 Gear Laughable in TBC.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Dyscord

I spend my real life 'getting gear'. I buy a new car for 30k. I spent a year working to get the down payment and will spend years paying it off. Its hot, its fast, its 'the best'.

4 months later they release a new, faster car, thats 20k cheaper. I expected to buy another car, thats a given. But 4 months later? And easier to aquire? After all my work? Don't tell me you wouldn't be pissed.

This isn't real life, and you profess to having fun getting the first set of gear in the first place.

Getting first set of gear = fun. Getting second set = more fun. Fun + fun = lots of fun.

[Tuco]

The more I think about it, the less I would mind if I was essentially handed T4 gear easily by level 65. If that happened, all it would do is level the playing field , which would be good for PVP in general, and recruitment, but it would end up being where it is now in a year.

[Nakilos]

I don't get the big deal. In EQ I had replaced most things I got in VT with stuff in the elemental planes, and further replaced the rest in Time, and that was uhh 10 months? Something like that.

My expectation is t3 gear will be great initially, get a few replacements by the 65-67 range in instances (likely primary slot pieces, bracers, gloves, that kind of thing), and still have a few useful items at 70, but mostly replaced through instance farming. Just the natural progression, and within a year people will have gear that makes Naxx loot look like AH greens, and the raider vs casual debate will start anew, with casuals whining about overpowered epics in PVP blah blah blah...even though once again, they have the same opportunity to obtain the same gear. I sure as shit didn't start MC in anything better than what I got in Strat/Scholo/BRS/a few quests rewards.

[Deathwing]

Originally Posted by Dyscord

I was hoping they'd do that too, except they posted already those without TBC would be able to hit level 70 too (go go fucking pvpers).

For the long run of the game too it'd be a bad idea. What happens when a year down the line johnny comelately wants to hit level 64, but no one is doing that quest chain anymore? Not real fun or fair.

Onyxia key quest chain. #1 reason I don't roll alts anymore.

Anyway, for once, I have to agree with Cad. They are stuck in a tough place here. Either you make T3 armor from Naxx last you until you start raiding at level 70 or you make it shit once you start leveling up and doing level 65 instances. The first solution voids out all the content of one dungeon that maybe 1% of the server will set foot in by the end of release. The other solution will void out most of the content from level 60-70, content that 100% of the expansion buyers(notice the difference, paying for expansion, naxx was free) will have access to and most likely experience at least once.

So, you're Blizzard, which decision would you make? Yes, they ultimately made a mistake by releasing Naxx so close to the expansion. It probably served it's purpose of stringing along the "bleeding edge" raiders, which do more for a server than some think. I do feel sorry for the designers and developers of Naxx though, their work is going to be short lived, and some of the fights sounded fun.

[Soygen]

Originally Posted by Nakilos

I don't get the big deal. In EQ I had replaced most things I got in VT with stuff in the elemental planes, and further replaced the rest in Time, and that was uhh 10 months? Something like that.

I think people are taking issue with Eyonix's wording. Such as "leveling up gear". Elemental Planes and Plane of Time were raid content. People are assuming from the vague wording, that your current raid gear will be replaced by single group/questing gear.

Either way, I don't see what the big deal is, really. That's all these games are basically. Kill new shit. Gear up. Kill new shit. Gear up. If I was in full Tier 3, I wouldn't want to have to wait until the very end of the expansion's content for some upgrades. /shrug

[Qhue]

I think the issue that people have with this is that of farming. You beat content the first time to progress and for the challenge. Shortly after that you have the content on 'farm status' and then you are just going through the necessary motions to obtain the gear for everyone as a necessary precursor to being able to progress further in the future on much harder content.

If this gear is to be outdated before we really have a chance to get it...what's the point in going through the monotony of farming?

What I would like to see is non binary victory conditions such as what was used with the Royalty in AQ. So your progression team beats a mob and you get loot for the first time....but you just barely passed. In future attempts if you not only pass but perform exceptionally (different kill order, tougher conditions, more efficient, faster etc) then you get additional and better rewards. So you combine the necessity of farming with the challenge motivation of there still being a further progression-like goal.

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Tuco

I do hope that non-tanking gear begins to scale higher in terms of surivability in TBC, because a lot of PVP is better at level 60 when everyone is in T0 or less, than it is with everyone in T2. This is mostly because the dmg has scaled higher and faster than mitigation, because, well, the only person on a raid really going for mitigation is the tank, who, not by chance, has a shitload of mitigation(for melee especially) in PVP.

Yeah. So if Eyonix's posts are nearly true then average joe will be running around with a Might of Menethil from his level 70 blue quest? WTF are the raid weapons gonna be like? This is why I really dont think Blizzard would intentionally introduce mudflation on this scale. Would the PVP game even viable? It will be more of an insta-gib mode than it already is....

[Dyscord]

Let me put it another way.

Yes, I had 'fun' aquiring my T1. And then my T2. And now my T3. Each one built upon the last. I wouldn't have gotten my T2 without having spent time gearing up with T1. I wouldn't have gotten T3 without T2. All the time I spent is validated by the 'leg up' I get at moving up to the next level.

What I'm looking at is a sort of "rich get richer" sort of standpoint. Once someone hits the big leagues of the 40 man raid, every step of the way he's got a leg up, an advantage, into aquiring the next step of 40 man gear.

Sure, people in blues can do BWL. But they'll have an easier time if they had MC gear. People in MC gear can do some of AQ, but its much easier to have BWL gear. So on and so forth.

Now replace that scenario with my 40 man raid gear only gives me a advantage towards aquiring 5 man gear. Thats a pretty big step down. Suddenly all that time I spent doing 40 man stuff isn't nearly as significant. It feels like I've been cheated.

[Tolanin]

Originally Posted by Nakilos

I don't get the big deal. In EQ I had replaced most things I got in VT with stuff in the elemental planes, and further replaced the rest in Time, and that was uhh 10 months? Something like that.

My expectation is t3 gear will be great initially, get a few replacements by the 65-67 range in instances (likely primary slot pieces, bracers, gloves, that kind of thing), and still have a few useful items at 70, but mostly replaced through instance farming. Just the natural progression, and within a year people will have gear that makes Naxx loot look like AH greens, and the raider vs casual debate will start anew, with casuals whining about overpowered epics in PVP blah blah blah...even though once again, they have the same opportunity to obtain the same gear. I sure as shit didn't start MC in anything better than what I got in Strat/Scholo/BRS/a few quests rewards.

except the elemental planes were 'end game' pop.... if you had been upgrading VT items with shit from plane of disease and storm and valor single group fights it woulda been way dumber.

NO one has a problem with new raid instances having better gear... but its fucking retarded to say that its OK for naxx gear to be outclassed by shit the mouth breathers get lvling up at lvl 65 after a week of work.

I still dont think it will happen.. eyonix proves time and time again he is an idiot.. so why should this be any different.

[Amahk]

The big deal is kind of like this. Judging on the past(Rag, Nef, C'thun) it takes 4-5 months from Zone release to the 1st kill of the last boss. This means Kel won't be killed till October/November at the earliest. Add on another month to that and let's say 10 people tops have their new BPs from Naxx. That's less than 25% of your top guilds(not even considering guilds that are just below this level) that will finally be able to say hey we have most of T3 and that will be November/December.

If the expansion comes out in Q4 2006 then why exactly am I raiding. Why did I get all this new raid gear if I won't be using it to progress in some new raid instance? If you're a paladin you definitely can't even use it to level up. All that int/stam/+heal/mana per 5 will only allow me to heal a mob to death. Maybe the paladin is the only class like this which is why I view T3 this way but if it isn't basically you're getting T3 to look pretty in the bank since you can't use it to level.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Tolanin

NO one has a problem with new raid instances having better gear... but its fucking retarded to say that its OK for naxx gear to be outclassed by shit the mouth breathers get lvling up at lvl 65 after a week of work.

So we get to the real heart of the problem.

You've spent all this time showing that you're superior through your excessive playtime, and you're irritated the playing field will be leveled with the expansion (at least for a little while).

Cry. Fucking. More.

[Tuco]

If you're a paladin you definitely can't even use it to level up. All that int/stam/+heal/mana per 5 will only allow me to heal a mob to death. Maybe the paladin is the only class like this which is why I view T3 this way but if it isn't basically you're getting T3 to look pretty in the bank since you can't use it to level.

Priests are the same way. I didn't get AQ gear cause I wanted to whore my points for naxx, but I hope I can get full 5/5 oracle before TBC, heh.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally Posted by Cad

To most of us, leveling up gear means AH greens and shit you get from quests as you roll..

To him leveling up gear probably means the best instance gear from the level 62-65 instances.

I fully expect that gear to be better than anything in the old world - what would be the point of including them if it was stuff 3-4 ilvls above strat gear?

Cad I know you had to run down to K-mart to get a new stack of Martha Stewart towels when you heard that you might be on equal footing with raiders a couple of months into the xpac, but try to think logically here.

Yes, we raiders enjoy raiding. That's why people who raided before bought a game which was raid-centric and proceeded to center their guilds and efforts...towards raiding.

However:

Naxx repairs are EXPENSIVE.

Naxx consumables are EXPENSIVE.

Naxx SETS are EXPENSIVE.

If all we were doing was spending time in these zones, raiding to get our gear, dying however much, and dealing with it, who would care? Not a lot of people, we'd have done it for the fun and the prestige of doing it when it was hard. But no, as has been pointed out ENDLESSLY before, raiding is a goddamned expensive venture and is worsened by the fact that the very gear you're getting here requires little things like arcanite (please note the hugely inflated price of arcane crystals now thanks to the double-sided demand increase) and other expensive mats. No one wants to spend all of the time farming for this stupid shit that they also had to spend a bunch of time learning just so it can be trash so soon into the expansion pack. They want it to continue to be an advantage until they start raiding something and replacing their gear with the shit that drops there. Honestly, it's completely fair.

As for an instance at 62 only providing shit a couple of ilvls higher than what you find in, say, Dire Maul...if it's a five-man, why the fuck shouldn't it?

What the expansion team needs to consider is how to make raiding less consumable-centric...it's ridiculous. The only way they're going to do this is to not scale up every damned consumable we already have so we're going through the same shit. Let some of these things die. Let raiders raid.

[Mahes]

If the expansion comes out in Q4 2006 then why exactly am I raiding.

Bingo!

If you are actually enjoying the content, then by all means play the game. I personally got tired of what was available and chose to suspend my account until the expansion. There really is no reason to play for any form of advancement if all you are doing, is the same thing over and over again. I enjoy new content and challenges. When the expansion comes out, the gear that drops in MC BWL AQ and Naxx will essentially be nullified. Not sure if this will be true for the Legendary quests, since those items have "Effects" that are nice to have.

Anybody who is tired of doing the same thing over and over again, take a break. The expansion, will to some point, put everybody on the same playing field for a few months.

The other reason I am taking a break. I will finally try the horde out playing a Blood Elf Paladin. . I think that will be one of the large advantages I look forward to with this expansion, a serious influx to the horde side.

[Amahk]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Priests are the same way. I didn't get AQ gear cause I wanted to whore my points for naxx, but I hope I can get full 5/5 oracle before TBC, heh.

Hehe. I actually got the AQ set so I could lvl easier in TBC and after they released the T3 stats it just strengthened my opinion

I'm sure other people saw this already but it just came to me that Blizzard have known their stance all along and hence why they made the T3 healing gear absolutely terrible for lvling up as compared to T2/T1 healing gear.

Doing this meant healers would have to use new items obtained through lvling from 61-70 and then could revert to T3 gear in raid instances until they got their T4 from the nbew lvl 70 instances. This would keep the progression of raid gear and not make it an absolute waste to even get T3 gear if it didn't help in a later raid instance.

However this is thrown out the window by Eyonix' statement that we'd be using T3 to lvl initially. Hopefully he's speaking out his ass as a lot of CMs do =/