Vanguard to change the death penalty

[Abalieno]

I'm surprised there aren't threads about this.

Brad is writing/defending on the forums some significant changes to the death penalty.

In short: no more CR "by default". The monsters now have a "threat level" separated from the base level.

This will follow a risk Vs reward mechanic.

High threat: the moster is stronger (higher HPS, more skills, better AI, etc..), but it drops better loot. While if you die you'll have to suffer harsher death penalties.

Low threat: the monster is weaker, soloable, poor loot, mild death penalty.

So basically the game won't have just one standard death penalty applied to all the cases, but different "cases" that will be determined by the threat level of the monster.

About these cases:

But in general, the death penalty can range from a money sink, to some exp lost but able to be regained, to exp lost period, to dropping a corpse with all of your gear but having that gear respawn after X number of hours real time at an Outpost, to a corpse that drops with all of your items that has to be recovered or dragged out by a friend, to even more severe penalties (for example, perhaps a corpse cannot be dragged, or even you have to defeat the mob that killed you in order to have access to your corpse (for example, a giant worm that eats your corpses, and until it dies, there is no corpse to loot)).

About the hardcore starting to yell:

Now, before anyone panics, does this mean we are dumbing down the game? No, I really don't think so. We *are* making deaths from mobs with a lower threat level easier, but then we are also making deaths from mobs with a high threat level as hard or even harder than before. And then we have options in-between. What we are doing is making the game more inclusive and less exclusive – players with different playstyles, tolerances, varying contiguous play times, etc. will all have plenty to do, again regardless of their level. No, we’re still not trying to make a game that is all things to all people, and yes, our primary audience is still the core gamer and we won’t make decisions that hurt what makes it attractive to our core audience. But there is a middle-ground – we can and are making a game where solo/casual, core, and hard core/raid gamers can co-exist.

My opinion in short:

1- You don't make significant changes so late in beta. This belongs to the very beginning of the design phase.

2- My opinion is that "Risk Vs Reward" has never been a really fun mechanic to use because it encourage players to aim lower instead of higher (the game punishes experimentation).

3- Linked to the previous point. The players will tend to "game" the system. Instead of supporting different playstyles most of the "harder" content will be simply ignored and people will just grind their way up (to boredom). Challenge not imposed isn't a challenge.

[Itzena]

My, my, my.
I wonder what could possibly have changed Sigil's collective minds on this?

When was beta3 scheduled for, again?

[Laerazi]

Sounds fine to me :

1- You don't make significant changes so late in beta. This belongs to the very beginning of the design phase.

I'm not sure if this is even worth repeating again, if this hasn't sunk in yet; Vanguard is not being beta tested as normal MMOs are these days. The game is undergoing significant changes based on feedback from testers; although that's not to say that they haven't had something like this planned for a while now. I don't think changing the death mechanics are that big of a deal at any stage in Beta, especially considering games like EQ2 did it while the game was released.

2- My opinion is that "Risk Vs Reward" has never been a really fun mechanic to use because it encourage players to aim lower instead of higher (the game punishes experimentation).

The game rewards experimentation, but equivalently deals a harsher penalty upon failure. The stakes are higher, you aren't just being punished. If you are willing to risk more, the possiblity of a bigger reward is in store for you.

I would think people who aim to be the best are going to go for the best rewards.

3- Linked to the previous point. The players will tend to "game" the system. Instead of supporting different playstyles most of the "harder" content will be simply ignored and people will just grind their way up (to boredom). Challenge not imposed isn't a challenge.

If it takes 2x as long to level on easier mobs, than it does on more difficult mobs, as well as the harder mobs dropping better loot, I think it would be worth the risk to try more challenging content; plus fighting easy/predictable mobs isn't exactly fun.

When was beta3 scheduled for, again?

Early August, I believe... or "sometime soon" which could be anywhere from now 'til next year.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Death penalties unique to encounters can be a fun gimic if done right, however given Brad's history they'll probably end up being more frustrating then fun.

Personally I think they're more in an alpha stage then anything resembling a real beta. At least they're beginning to realize people don't want to spend 20 minutes doing CR if they die while linkdead or afk to some roaming green mob.

Risk vs. Reward has -always- been a stupid idea. I cringe on the inside whenever I see it uttered. If anything, it should be 'challenge vs. reward.'

[Yaedaen]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Risk vs. Reward has -always- been a stupid idea. I cringe on the inside whenever I see it uttered. If anything, it should be 'challenge vs. reward.'

Amen

[Cybsled]

Brad probably realized that WoW has harsh penalties for raiders and felt it was a good mechanic afterall.

However...

for example, a giant worm that eats your corpses, and until it dies, there is no corpse to loot

Rofl?

That mechanic right there would make me quit the game if our entire raid wiped and all our best shit got gulped.

[Cuppycake]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

1- You don't make significant changes so late in beta.

Given the state of the game right now...I hope its not late in beta. =x

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Laerazi

Vanguard is not being beta tested as normal MMOs are these days. The game is undergoing significant changes based on feedback from testers;

I'd say that the game is going through this because of original design issues.

If it takes 2x as long to level on easier mobs, than it does on more difficult mobs, as well as the harder mobs dropping better loot, I think it would be worth the risk to try more challenging content;

Let's see.

The goal behind these changes was about promoting different playstyles. Or, as Brad says:

What we are doing is making the game more inclusive and less exclusive – players with different playstyles, tolerances, varying contiguous play times, etc. will all have plenty to do, again regardless of their level.

So you think it's a good idea to support soloing by making the game INCREDIBLY GRINDY for solo players?

[Angry Amadeus]

The game is more than playable, it's fun. Without going into detail, the first few hours spent in game reminded me of my first foray into the Qeynos Hills with my rusty short sword. Only the game world is (huge).

All of which is mentioned someplace on the (non-beta) forums over at VSOH.

[Zehn - Vhex]

I'd avoid violating the NDA, it just opens up the whole "Roffles they only ban NDA violaters who say bad things lolololol!" thing.

[Man0warr]

I don't think changing the death mechanics are that big of a deal at any stage in Beta, especially considering games like EQ2 did it while the game was released.

I remember SOE changing death penalty in SWG at end of beta, I never bought SWG because of that. Sitting in hospital for 3 hours after a death? :/ WTF

[Angry Amadeus]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

I'd avoid violating the NDA, it just opens up the whole "Roffles they only ban NDA violaters who say bad things lolololol!" thing.

Doubt anything was violated there. All two sentences were already known information, the other was conjecture.

Do you take me for a cad? *wink*

[LikeWow!]

Beta 3 is to begin before the end of the month, or Brad will explain why.

Say we're crawling through a dungeon; trash at top, nasty shit below. In EQ the death penalty is mostly linear. You always lose a static amount of exp, have to recover your corpse, but you go through more effort to CR the deeper you are. With VG’s new system, the penalty jumps from cash/recoverable exp loss at shallow levels, to a fully fledged corpse run to the bottom of the dungeon with no chance of recovering exp. From the looks of it, risk increases at a faster rate than in a crawl in EQ.

[Soygen]

I'm with Zehn. The idea could be cool, if done right. However, I can't say I will give Sigil the benefit of the doubt, at this point. I hope it's cool, however.

[Jooka]

The concept is quite interesting. Id be happy to test out such a system actually. Some of the extreme examples he gives are clearly over the top but Im sure will be adjusted accoringly. This is probable the best thing Ive read about Vanguard in months.