Vanguard to change the death penalty

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

I won't. Because like I previously said, it goes exactly to what reward will come out this risk. The reward for the risk of going into sleeper's was 1 month of cloth caps and having a QA lead say it was intended of all things. The end reward for the risk of going into Plane of Mischief was a non working zone for 4 months. What's the reward going to be for risking everything to kill the worm? 4 months of wooden shields until they finish the script/itemization because they shipped another incomplete game?

Be sure to quote any unitemized content that has taken place in Vanguard so far in its final release.

Leopards do change their spots - from Blizzard quoting that all their future titles would have FREE online multiplayer available to them to whatever other developer changing direction.

This is an industry where past history tends to show absolutely nothing. Until the problem afflicts the product at hand, then feel free to bitch.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

Be sure to quote any unitemized content that has taken place in Vanguard so far in its final release.

...

This is the type of thing that causes these threads to be filled with 10 pages of bullshit. Saying "you cant prove anything!" is just as stupid as saying "cloth cap in EQ = cloth cap in VG."

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

But yet spending the entire previous week farming gold to pay for repair costs is no big deal - gotcha, hypocrite.

Bullshit, idiot. I have yet to farm gold to pay for repairs, and I play a tank.

[Deris]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Bullshit, idiot. I have yet to farm gold to pay for repairs, and I play a tank.

I have to run shitty pugs in random dungeons in gear I have banked, so I can roll need on everything, then sell/de it to make repairs :>. granted I don't have to do it every week, but every 3-4 weeks yes. I can go through as much as 100g a week repairing. Sometimes more if its a brand new boss.

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by Oloh

In EQ and WoW, there is a uniform death penalty. In VG, it will be variable, ranging from a WoWish penalty to an EQish penalty, depending on the "threat" of the mob, which, if applied to WoW, would be akin to the "normal/elite" system. Nothing in that dynamic, alone, should be the cause for any alarm.

You're wrong Oloh. WoW does not have a uniform death penalty. You may be fooled into thinking this because of its simplicity but it is *far* from uniform. If you raid and acquire raid level gear, your penalty is increased. When you begin new content (take on greater challenges) the penalty is significantly increased. Once the encounters are learned (reducing the challenge) the resulting penalty also goes down because there are less deaths per boss kill allowing a positive cash flow for instance runs which in turn fund attempts at more challenging content.

The WoW death penalty is an amazingly simple concept. The beauty of it is that, despite this simplicity, it scales amazingly well through all content and all group sizes. It pretty accurately reflects challenge vs reward in any given situation.

Please note I am not considering other money sinks like consumables - this is strictly the repair bill (the death penalty).

Originally Posted by Oloh

I agree that might be part of the reason for the arguments to a pretty solid idea. I could care less about that aspect of it, but that doesn't change the fact that the system being discussed is pretty solid on paper. At least with folks that are looking at it relatively subjectively.

You're own grammatical error is precisely the problem. I think you meant to say "objectively" (without bias) as opposed to "subjectively" (with bias).

It isn't solid on paper - it is a pile. Just like many other aspects of Vanguard it is overly-engineered to the point of feeling contrived.

It discourages players from reaching beyond their comfort zones and trying new things because they would face penalties more harsh than 'normal'. This is the fundamental flaw. Instead of encouraging many playstyles to cross-over and experience new ways of playing it confines people to their corner of the map. It is taking the creativity of designing challenging encounters and throwing it right out the window - instead of the encounter being a challenge it is recovering that is the challenge. What the hell is that? Why should the greatest challenge of a 4 hour raid be the 2 hours spent recovering because everyone died halfway through?

It is crap Oloh. Any way you try to fancy it up with pretty bows and ribbons, it is still crap.

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Esmo

Brad even says in that post - gear will be hoarded. People will get rid of gear only very rarely because of the need for multiple sets of gear on everyone. Getting gear will be a pita; keeping gear will be the norm (no hand-me-downs for JOO!); PUGs will be full of ninjas as they were in EQ.

The original death penalty sucked and the new one sucks too. The obsession with CR + loss as the premiere aspects of their penalty is the problem.

That's all because they tied their gameplay to Raph Koster's theory of fun. You can find the whole "vision (tm)" in a nutshell right at the very end of this presentation under "The absence of fun" (which is a nice header): http://www.theoryoffun.com/grammar/gdc2005.htm

Personally I don't have a problem with the new concept, because I don't compare Vanguard with Everquest anymore. It's a totally different game, like EQ 2.

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Bullshit, idiot. I have yet to farm gold to pay for repairs, and I play a tank.

I do, and I get pissed when I start dieing for stupid reasons in zones like MC and BWL. To quote on my third death on a non-wipe up to Bloodlord, "Yeah, it was funny the first two times I died, now it is just pissing me off, can we keep me healed please."

I dont like being pissy in raids, I like to make jokes and what not, but everytime I die I think about how many hours I have to spend in a PuG to recover the gold I am losing from dieing. Not only that, but I have to put up with people who have no clue how to play their characters, for instance, priests who dont heal themselves from one pull to the next. FFS I had to tell them "please heal yourself". Or mages who dont know how to sheep any other way except by sheep pulling. Let a warrior pull, and you have just turned their world upside down.

Shit like that is a penalty in and of itself. Thats why I dont think this idea is necessarily bad, but I do think they better have all their ducks in a row, or their playerbase will jump ship the first time they lose their uber gear from server instability, untuned mobs, or bad QA in general.

I dont see how that is possible, since to date, no MMO has done this.

[Neric]

Excuse me, I don't play WoW, so I am not accustomed to the common procedures in this game. Is it too far off the mark to suggest that the guild should refund repair costs for the tanks and collect a monthly fee from every member for it?

[Darph]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

High threat: the moster is stronger (higher HPS, more skills, better AI, etc..), but it drops better loot. While if you die you'll have to suffer harsher death penalties.

Low threat: the monster is weaker, soloable, poor loot, mild death penalty.

Prolly one of the best systems I've ever heard of. No more AFK death de-lvls to Commons bears. :-p

[Quineloe]

Excuse me, I don't play WoW, so I am not accustomed to the common procedures in this game. Is it too far off the mark to suggest that the guild should refund repair costs for the tanks and collect a monthly fee from every member for it?

Yes, because other members also have to pay for repair costs. Guilds however SHOULD have enough money to give everyone some gold on progression raids.

I do, and I get pissed when I start dieing for stupid reasons in zones like MC and BWL. To quote on my third death on a non-wipe up to Bloodlord, "Yeah, it was funny the first two times I died, now it is just pissing me off, can we keep me healed please."

BWL is + gold, even if you die a few times
MC can't possibly be mandatory raiding for your guild anymore, so just ignore that.

I have to run shitty pugs in random dungeons in gear I have banked, so I can roll need on everything, then sell/de it to make repairs :>. granted I don't have to do it every week, but every 3-4 weeks yes. I can go through as much as 100g a week repairing. Sometimes more if its a brand new boss.

Encounters I've recently wipe-learned with my guild:
Patchwerk, Gluth, Faerlina, Maexxna, Noth and the instructor. Now Heigan is up and I'm at 826g right now. I was just at 900g when Naxx started, so I kinda don't understand your issue, and yes a full repair at the bot is well over 20g for me.

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Yes, because other members also have to pay for repair costs. Guilds however SHOULD have enough money to give everyone some gold on progression raids.


BWL is + gold, even if you die a few times
MC can't possibly be mandatory raiding for your guild anymore, so just ignore that.


Encounters I've recently wipe-learned with my guild:
Patchwerk, Gluth, Faerlina, Maexxna, Noth and the instructor. Now Heigan is up and I'm at 826g right now. I was just at 900g when Naxx started, so I kinda don't understand your issue, and yes a full repair at the bot is well over 20g for me.

Apparently you are a unique flower, congratz.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Dyscord

. . .


THE WORM KING.

. . . .

That one got me laughing heheh.

[Rezz]

^^^

Quick note, to esmo:

Increasing death penalties allows you to reward risk takers that much more heavily vs. the people that farm fodder. Allowing individuals of exceptional skill to stand above those who merely chanced upon a rare drop. Increase the death penalty, and you also won't have farmer bots trying these type of encounters. Lower it to encourage the less adventurous types to xp there, ramp it up to make an area harder. It allows for more dynamics than simply ramping up the level of mobs in an area to increase it's difficulty or thinning spawns to lower it. Tie all that in with the adventure instance deal, and you have a chance to make worthwhile, powerful items available at lower levels. Because the penalty itself will reduce mudflation, farm-bots and make the encounter meaningful in more than a "Yay, Adjective Shoulders of the Animal!"

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

So lets be honest....

It's something that you couldn't handle dealing with occasionally - but you want to be able to be the biggest dog on the block at the same time.

Thus it holds no interest for you.

Nah I don't really care about uber loot from these games anymore. And I doubt it is a question of handling anything occasionally. Basically the system seems to be they are minimizing death penalties on easy shit, but will still use harsh ones on the more worthwhile shit. Big friggin deal. A death penalty adds ZERO to the actual outcome of an encounter. It is a penalty for failing, that is all. Make the encounter itself fun, that is what I want. I dont need to be kicked in the balls for having tried and failed.

Am repeating myself, but all these penalties do is discourage people from trying things that might be a little higher than their level, or do things in PUGs because odds are you will be grouped with at least one retard.

When I had a choice between EQ2 and WOW, the main factor for my choosing WOW was the difference in death penalties. I saw EQ2s and said nope no thanks, not going to torture myself. I saw WOWs, which was basically nothing but coin. The choice for me was obvious.

I read alot of posts from people on death penalties and many pro ones seem to think it is a "must" for any MMO. Well maybe a decade or more ago, but times change. Even EQ1 watered down it's penalty tons ovrer the years. Pogo sticks were all the rave once, but you don't see many now. MMOs are evolving too. WOW clearly is an evolution over EQ, and the "next generation " game will presumably be an evolution over WOW. It's where the customer base has its interest and I submit the comparison of numbers between EQ1 when it reigned supreme and WOW tells tons.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Esmo

. . . .


It discourages players from reaching beyond their comfort zones and trying new things because they would face penalties more harsh than 'normal'. This is the fundamental flaw. Instead of encouraging many playstyles to cross-over and experience new ways of playing it confines people to their corner of the map. It is taking the creativity of designing challenging encounters and throwing it right out the window - instead of the encounter being a challenge it is recovering that is the challenge. What the hell is that? Why should the greatest challenge of a 4 hour raid be the 2 hours spent recovering because everyone died halfway through?

It is crap Oloh. Any way you try to fancy it up with pretty bows and ribbons, it is still crap.

QFT. Couldn't have said it better myself.