No WF changes in 1.12

[Nehrak]

I don't know about you, but I'm still waiting for the post-30 (or was it 40?) class abilities mentioned way back in beta.

Tick tock indeed.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Kato Danzo

I actually think this move is quite ingenious on the part of Blizzard:

Take a weakened faction, nerf it even more, then bring it back up to where it was and say you "buffed" them. Saves them from having to find an actual solution to the faction imbalance by saying "Hey guys, at least we didn't nerf windfury!"*

They've been doing this to priests since release.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Dyscord

With the coming of The World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade, Blizzard is pleased to offer this new preview of Factional Dungeons. Now players can enter dungeons custom balanced around their own unique faction's strengths. Adventurers from the Alliance will have the Mires of Maddness to explore. This terrific zone will offer deadly challenges and some of the greatest loot. Horde players will be allowed to assault the Dead Mines. Terrible challenges await the horde from level 19 elite monsters and incredible white loot from the bosses.

But both dain and tormax drop blue loot.

[Etadanik]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

They've been doing this to priests since release.

Except undead shadow priests.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Who gives a shit about shadow priests? 8(

[Cadrid]

Originally Posted by Nehrak

I don't know about you, but I'm still waiting for the post-30 (or was it 40?) class abilities mentioned way back in beta.

Tick tock indeed.

They've gone the way of Hero Classes, I think.

[Digits]

No, we just have to wait until the expansion to get them. I'm not joking either.

[Makata]

Honestly, this reversal is even worse than the original nerf. With the original nerf, there's at least a hint of intelligence. They were able to isolate a game mechanic and realize it wasn't behaving like they originally intended. In an effort to bring the game in line with what they think is fair, they decide to change it without thinking it through. At the very least though it shows they are trying to improve the game.

Reversing it back to its original form means they clearly have no idea how to balance it. It's pretty unlikely that a mechanic can be perfectly balanced if it isn't behaving like you intended. A bunch of horde whined so the devs said "Gee, maybe we shouldn't do this" and without actually going through and considering what is the best solution they just scrap the whole thing and don't give it a second thought. Maybe WF ISN'T supposed to proc on a hamstring, but maybe it is supposed to be more AP when it does hit. Maybe there is some way to balance it and every other mechanic brought up in shaman vs paladin debates that don't amount to "fixes" and reversals of the fixes.

Seems to me Blizzard is just going by trial and error. Put a change on PTR and announce it. If the bitching level is too low then that means most people understand how much the change was needed and a further nerf is probably needed. If the bitching level is too high then obviously it's unwarranted. But if the bitching level is juuust right, where for every 1 sandy vag there's a dick willing to tell him he's a sandy vag, then you know it's a good change.

Just once I'd like to see them actually explain in great detail how they come to their conclusions that shit is balanced or imbalanced. Telling us "oh well the devs weren't satisfied so we reversed it" doesn't explain shit. WHY weren't they satisfied. WHY are they satisfied after the reversal? HOW much utility/damage is WF supposed to add? TALK TO US. Every single serious level 60 player would be more than willing to read a 3 page blue post detailing in excrutiating detail what their intentions are with a mechanic and why it's being changed. Leaving us in the dark ensures a complete disparity in knowledge between them and us and thus a breakdown in communication.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Makata

Honestly, this reversal is even worse than the original nerf. With the original nerf, there's at least a hint of intelligence. They were able to isolate a game mechanic and realize it wasn't behaving like they originally intended. In an effort to bring the game in line with what they think is fair, they decide to change it without thinking it through. At the very least though it shows they are trying to improve the game.

Reversing it back to its original form means they clearly have no idea how to balance it. It's pretty unlikely that a mechanic can be perfectly balanced if it isn't behaving like you intended. A bunch of horde whined so the devs said "Gee, maybe we shouldn't do this" and without actually going through and considering what is the best solution they just scrap the whole thing and don't give it a second thought. Maybe WF ISN'T supposed to proc on a hamstring, but maybe it is supposed to be more AP when it does hit. Maybe there is some way to balance it and every other mechanic brought up in shaman vs paladin debates that don't amount to "fixes" and reversals of the fixes.

Seems to me Blizzard is just going by trial and error. Put a change on PTR and announce it. If the bitching level is too low then that means most people understand how much the change was needed and a further nerf is probably needed. If the bitching level is too high then obviously it's unwarranted. But if the bitching level is juuust right, where for every 1 sandy vag there's a dick willing to tell him he's a sandy vag, then you know it's a good change.

Just once I'd like to see them actually explain in great detail how they come to their conclusions that shit is balanced or imbalanced. Telling us "oh well the devs weren't satisfied so we reversed it" doesn't explain shit. WHY weren't they satisfied. WHY are they satisfied after the reversal? HOW much utility/damage is WF supposed to add? TALK TO US. Every single serious level 60 player would be more than willing to read a 3 page blue post detailing in excrutiating detail what their intentions are with a mechanic and why it's being changed. Leaving us in the dark ensures a complete disparity in knowledge between them and us and thus a breakdown in communication.

qft

[Alamando]

Originally Posted by Makata

Just once I'd like to see them actually explain in great detail how they come to their conclusions that shit is balanced or imbalanced.

I'm not sure I would communicate with a playerbase when any decisions I made would be met with

Originally Posted by Makata

Honestly, this reversal is even worse than the original nerf.

regardless of the direction of the decision.

Really, you seem to be suggesting that Blizzard should have left the WF nerf in, even though it may have been a bad decision, simply to show that they have dedication to their ideas.

So, uhm... How about those meeting stones?


















...awkward...

[Makata]

Originally Posted by Alamando

I'm not sure I would communicate with a playerbase when any decisions I made would be met with



regardless of the direction of the decision.

So you mean to tell me that:
1) The current state of WF is such that it caused some initial alarm with devs when they looked into the minutia of it, BUT AT THE SAME TIME
2) ... is completely and totally balanced and needs no nerfing or enhancing whatsoever?

Bullshit. You can't tell me a mechanic is working differently than it originally was supposed to but is also completely balanced. Shit was designed partially under the assumption WF didn't proc off hamstring. Everything has to be balanced against everything else.

Really, you seem to be suggesting that Blizzard should have left the WF nerf in, even though it may have been a bad decision, simply to show that they have dedication to their ideas.

No. The facts of the case are:
1) WF is not operating like they intended it to.
2) Nerfing it to the point that they intended WF to perform was by and large considered unnecessary and widened an already wide gap.
3) WF is one of the staples of the shaman class in group/raid-oriented balancing.

So how about instead of applying a nerf with 0 explanation and then undoing it, also with 0 explanation, they truly examine the issue and figure out PRECISELY how they want the WF mechanic to operate. Does the extra attack need an AP component? How much AP? What % to proc? What can it proc off of? Should it work for ranged? Should it work for wands? How should it compare to GoA and TA? How does it compare to paladin abilities? Etc, etc, etc. You going to tell me they figured all that shit out in less than a day and realized their original WF is perfect in every way?

SPEND THE FUCKING TIME TO FIX IT TO WHAT IT SHOULD BE, whatever that is. COMMUNICATE with the player base. Tell them what your goal is for the shaman class with numbers not vague english. Tell them how shamans are supposed to compare to paladins on healing, damage, raid utility, etc, etc, etc. The more they talk to us, the more feedback we can give and the better a result we can reach. Pretending like they are infalible and don't need to give us the data is hurting this game tremendously. Seriously, raise your hand if you think the game is balanced.

WF didn't need that nerf, but it probably does need some adjustment if the entire horde playerbase is this vocal about it.

[Alamando]

Originally Posted by Makata

So you mean to tell me that:

I don't mean to tell you anything about the Windfury nerf, as I have never raided hordeside. So let's skip that part.

Originally Posted by Makata

No. The facts of the case are:

I also don't know about Blizzard's development process. I won't really try to assume if their intentions were to "test the waters", an actual attempt at balance, or large-scale trolling. Another skip.

Originally Posted by Makata

Should [Windfury] work for wands?

Hawt. I'd defect to Horde just for this.

Originally Posted by Makata

SPEND THE FUCKING TIME TO FIX IT TO WHAT IT SHOULD BE, whatever that is.

Okay. I agree completely, even on a larger scale. Seriously, I'd put up like 10 test realms and experiment with various Paladin/Shaman changes until something was less absurd than the current situation.

But I'm hardly the head of Blizzard. Oh well.

Originally Posted by Makata

COMMUNICATE with the player base.

This is all I ever commented on. My intention was to say that some significant percent of the player base will react poorly to any proposed change, regardless of the logic or numbers behind it. (See SoCrusader nerf) And I used you as an example because you posted that undoing a nerf was somehow worse than the original nerf.

Nice judgement call. Really. I'm sure the Blizzard devs are all lining up at forums.wow.com, ready to get feedback from thousands of level 1 alts who know less about the game than you do. I'm sure they give great feedback.

That said, a forum post or two from the developers SOMEWHERE wouldn't hurt. >______>

(Attn: developers - Post your stuff here. We won't tell, promise.)

[Northerner]

Originally Posted by Makata

...

(I do almost feel bad for the snip but in the end, I'll get over it.)

Makata, I rarely agree much but I do certainly agree now. I simply don't know what the devs are thinking at this point. A simple statement of "we would like alliance and horde raids to be on an equal footing but we think that they already are because: X, Y, Z and so on" would be asinine but at least interesting.

My last joke in our guild forums was a trinket that provided 50 mana/5, 20 Stam, 35 Int, 25 spirit, -30% threat (active), and procced a 50% chance of regenning 60 mana on spell cast. The activation was 70% immunity to interruption for 10 seconds while casting. We laughed and laughed a bit (many if not most have raided alliance side by now) but it started to settle in that I wouldn't even have to give up a coveted trinket slot for it were I playing on the other side of the fence. And that's Mages really... nevermind Hunters, Warlocks and all melee classes!

[Tancred]

Proposed nerf: 18 pages of bitching
Retraction of proposed nerf: 3 pages of bitching and counting.

Can you think of a reason why attempting "communication with US!" is not high on their priority list?

[Sancus]

Originally Posted by Tancred

Proposed nerf: 18 pages of bitching
Retraction of proposed nerf: 3 pages of bitching and counting.

Can you think of a reason why attempting "communication with US!" is not high on their priority list?

This is said way too often and it just keeps making less and less sense. Seriously, what the fuck. You are a designer for the most popular MMORPG in North America, if not the world. You come to a board and read a reaction to your change, and you would actually think 'gee, look how much bitching there is, wow, I'm offended, I don't want to communicate with these people.'

I can't even imagine the level of stupidity and ignorance you would need to react like that. As a designer for such a game YOU SHOULD FUCKING EXPECT MASSIVE BITCHING ABOUT EVERY CHANGE NO MATTER HOW TRIVIAL IT MAY SEEM TO YOU.

If you can't handle it, you have the wrong fucking job, end of story.

And if you can't realize that no matter what you do, there's gonna be bitching, you're also in the wrong job. That doesn't change the fact that, if you're trying to be a good fucking designer, you WILL communicate with the playerbase. Not to try to get them to bitch less. Bitching is an irrelevant side note to any mmorpg's existence.

You communicate because that's what a good designer does. Because among six million fucking people, you can guarantee that a) there are people at least twice as smart as you playing your game and b) there are people who spend at least five times as much time as you actually playing your game, which conclude to c) There are people who know the game better than you, and can provide valuable information and feedback on whether your changes are any good.

But these people can't do that if you don't TELL THEM ANYTHING. And you hire Community Managers to read through the massive amount of bullshit, and seperate out the stuff that is from those people who are smarter than you and know the game better than you do. Not to post politician-level snowjobs and abuse their moderator capabilities in joke threads.

Seriously. Blizzard misses this whole fucking point. And that's why they will continue to act clueless, because they will never admit that players know their game better than they do, and that there are players way smarter than them, and that even if there weren't, among even ten thousand people, someone is going to think of something that one of the few dozen people at Blizzard didn't think of. And that something could be very valuable.

Instead, the fucking losers sit in their ivory tower and pretend that they know what's best for the game and that they don't have to explain themselves to anyone, and that the only purpose for CMs is to try and pacify the crazed masses who don't know anything.

And at the same time they take this tone and attitude with their playerbase, they occasionally back down and do what the players tell them when there is enough bitching, which is exactly THE OPPOSITE of what they should be doing. It is not volume that makes player feedback have merit, it is reason and intelligence. But they aren't looking for that, and they don't give a shit about it.

Fucking morons.