World PvP preview [WoW]

[Digits]

How old is that Ragnaros number? Even if it were recent, and I've seen that number being thrown around for months now, you don't need to clear Molten Core to do Molten Core. I'd imagine most any hodge podge of 40 people can clear up to Garr with todays gear, mods and understanding of game mechanics, even if its a faq telling you what to spec and what to do.

Hell, I lead a PUG that cleared up to Garr and was the second Horde guild to do so on my server. If I could do it over a year and a half ago, then any fuck now can do it and in 3 weeks I'll be seeing just how accurate my statement is when I go into MC again on my second shaman with standard gear with a pug.

[Cad]

It's not a question of whether it can be done Digits. Of course it can.

The question is, IS it being done? The overwhelming answer is no. A co-worker of mine who I recently realized is a WoW player has 2 level 60's, but spends his time running lowbies in his guild through SM and RFD and Uldaman.. hasn't ever done a 40-man or 20-man instance, says they never even considered it even though they have like 80 people in the guild. They like to get 20-30 people together and go fight in southshore or menethil or whatever. It's amazing. Guy plays with his wife and just casually levels up and PvP's now and then. I don't think he even does BG's.

Casual players really aren't doing MC, despite how easy we might think it is. It's just not their playstyle, they really don't care. And they outnumber us 3 to 1.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Cad

I said cuts out most of the crap, not makes the crap indistinguishable from the game as a whole.

lol, zing!

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Cad

made up facts lalala

yeah right, because you're not "raiding" until you have actually KILLED ragnaros!
I never knew that!

Besides, what are your made up facts showing? You honestly think that people that only play like 15 hours a week can't be raiding? Or do you think that the moment you set foot into MC, you're hardcore?

You're still full of shit.

Originally Posted by Cad

anecdotal evidence about a coworker

And of course EVERYONE is like him! There are no players that raid 2 days a week! Except that I have a few in my guild, who today killed Grobbulus and Maexxna. If this is possible at that level, why shouldn't it be possible for BWL?

[Torrid]

Originally Posted by Etadanik

I'm not the one whining incessantly about Horde population imbalances.

No, you're whining about PvE speced raiders getting "owned" and the Alliance on your server sucking. And you're whining to the Horde they they should accept the population imbalance because they are apparently so much better players.

Because every server is like yours, right? Because PvP should only be remotely fair on PvP servers, right? Because the gap won't widen over time, right?

Originally Posted by Etadanik

You must have crappy searching skills. Here, i"ll help:

Do I have to explain to you why Thottbot data means jack shit? Regardless, thottbot lists three times as many kills for Thrall. But I suppose they are all from PvE server guilds? Wait, didn't you say PvE servers don't PvP?

I said I was looking for severs to play on. Thottbot doesn't tell me which servers have killed Magni. Give me guild and server names.

Originally Posted by Etadanik

I counter your sad, pathetic point with actual facts and WHAT DO YOU DO? Call me an Alliance whiner

You mean your fact that PvP servers arn't nearly as imbalanced as normal ruleset servers? (the rest of that post was crying about the Alliance on your server) Wow, nobody had ever noticed that before! Thanks for clearing this mess up!

WoW lists them as "normal" instead of PvE for a reason. There are in fact plenty of people on those servers who PvP, believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Etadanik

So is this your tactic? Anyone who disagrees with you is an Alliance whiner? Pathetic.

No, that comment was just to mock you.

[Etadanik]

Originally Posted by Torrid

No, you're whining about PvE speced raiders getting "owned" and the Alliance on your server sucking. And you're whining to the Horde they they should accept the population imbalance because they are apparently so much better players.

This is why you're almost not worth replying to. I'm "whining" because I pointed out that PvE specced raiders have a built-in talent disadvantage versus PvP specced chars? I'm "whining" because I point out ancedotal evidence wherein Horde beats Alliance despite higher populations on the Alliance side? I'm "whining" by arguing that world PvP should be implemented despite population imbalances on the PvE servers, because world PvP should only be implemented on PvP servers anyhow?

You don't seem to understand the definition of whining. Whining, with respect to a MMO, is what people do when they complain incessantly without having a real argument - like what you're doing now.

Because every server is like yours, right? Because PvP should only be remotely fair on PvP servers, right? Because the gap won't widen over time, right?

If a server is PvE, why should it have world PvP? People go to PvE servers to escape world PvP - weren't they the ones whining about ganking? But if Blizzard is really desperate to introduce world PvP to PvE servers, then they can build a separate ruleset for it to address the massive population imbalance - and why shouldn't they? The PvE servers were advertised for raiding; it's expected that they won't be balanced for PvP. On the other hand, world PvP has been going on in PvP servers for a long fucking time now and population imbalances are an insiginificant issue on these *PvP designated* servers. So if your beef is with the PvE servers - kindly remove yourself to that other thread discussing how shamans suck. I'm talking about world PvP - you know, the sort that PvE servers never had?

Do I have to explain to you why Thottbot data means jack shit?

Forget the data. Read the comments and follow the guilds. There's been far more kills of Alliance faction leaders than 2xKing Bronzebeard. Forgive us for not going after them more - after all, what would be the point after doing it once?

Regardless, thottbot lists three times as many kills for Thrall. But I suppose they are all from PvE server guilds? Wait, didn't you say PvE servers don't PvP?

They don't. Do you know how most faction leader raids happen? I'll tell you: they happen at night: three AM in the morning. No one of the other faction worth a damn is on. Then you attack, because that's pretty much your only hope of victory given how easy it is for people to grief a faction leader raid.

And personally, I think most of the faction leader kills are on PvE servers for a damn good reason - because on any server where you have parity faction ratios and a PvP-minded player base, raiding the other faction's home city is nigh fucking impossible. Reinforcements will pour out of Orgrimmar's asshole the moment you enter Durotar, and with flight paths so close for the other side, you might as well forget attacking the faction leaders at any SANE time.

And if you just wanted to lure the other side out, Tarren Mill works just fine.

So you can imagine why I don't give much thought to your idea that killing faction leaders = ZOMG PVP. I don't know any true PvP'er who really likes the idea of fighting a billion guards and DK mobs just so they can get harassed zero-risk by the other side. PvP'ers kill players, not mobs.

You mean your fact that PvP servers arn't nearly as imbalanced as normal ruleset servers? (the rest of that post was crying about the Alliance on your server) Wow, nobody had ever noticed that before! Thanks for clearing this mess up!

No problem. Seems like you, at least, were confused.

WoW lists them as "normal" instead of PvE for a reason. There are in fact plenty of people on those servers who PvP, believe it or not.

Then they chose the wrong fucking server and deserve all that's coming to them. PvP servers exist for a reason, and it's not so you can /point and /laugh at all the stupid PvP'ers while you enjoy all the benefits of both.

No, that comment was just to mock you.

Thanks. Remember all this started with my response to Itzena that 3:1 ratios for *PvE populations* won't lead to Alliance perma-dominating Horde in world PvP, and that the general line of arguments pursued by your supporters is to theorycraft 3 vs. 1 fights on those servers where it never happens, and to suggest that hardcore raiders are well specced for PvP (or even well geared, in certain cases like resto druids) when nearly every single class has different talent builds for PvE and PvP.

[Deris]

We used to jack the Stormwind racial leader until they moved it on us - 11g splits is neat when you only bring 8-11 people.


I also know of some horde who got the betrayal debuff and would kill Vosh'Gaijin with 3-4 people , and pocket 20g a kill with a 20m respawn.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

yeah right, because you're not "raiding" until you have actually KILLED ragnaros!
I never knew that!

Besides, what are your made up facts showing? You honestly think that people that only play like 15 hours a week can't be raiding? Or do you think that the moment you set foot into MC, you're hardcore?

You're still full of shit.


And of course EVERYONE is like him! There are no players that raid 2 days a week! Except that I have a few in my guild, who today killed Grobbulus and Maexxna. If this is possible at that level, why shouldn't it be possible for BWL?

Who the fuck said anything about possible? BOTTOM LINE. 25% have killed ragnaros. 15% have killed Nef. Numbers from Tigole's own mouth, on video.

3 OUT OF 4 PEOPLE SIMPLY ARE NOT RAIDING THESE DUNGEONS. IF THEY WERE, THEY WOULD BE KILLING THE BOSSES. DEAL WITH IT.

[Samflam]

Originally Posted by Cad

3 OUT OF 4 PEOPLE SIMPLY ARE NOT RAIDING THESE DUNGEONS. IF THEY WERE, THEY WOULD BE KILLING THE BOSSES. DEAL WITH IT.

I know many guilds on my server are still working on MC and haven't killed Ragnaros. Or BWL and Nef. What you are saying simply is not a fact.

[Darkmyst]

Originally Posted by Cad

Who the fuck said anything about possible? BOTTOM LINE. 25% have killed ragnaros. 15% have killed Nef. Numbers from Tigole's own mouth, on video.

3 OUT OF 4 PEOPLE SIMPLY ARE NOT RAIDING THESE DUNGEONS. IF THEY WERE, THEY WOULD BE KILLING THE BOSSES. DEAL WITH IT.

That was a number of months ago that he said that. Unless the subscriber base has grown by 25% since then it's almost certain those numbers have increased.


Stand in Iron Forge or Orgrimar by the bank and randomly inspect 50 people. I promise you you'll MC or higher BoP epics on more than 1 in 4.

EDIT: Since this a World PvP thread I thought I'd add something relevant. The sand thing in Silithis is just flat out gay. I mean we're talking a level of gayness that makes Richard Simmons look like the poster child for heterosexuals everywhere.

[Ephialtes]

Originally Posted by Cad

Who the fuck said anything about possible? BOTTOM LINE. 25% have killed ragnaros. 15% have killed Nef. Numbers from Tigole's own mouth, on video.

3 OUT OF 4 PEOPLE SIMPLY ARE NOT RAIDING THESE DUNGEONS. IF THEY WERE, THEY WOULD BE KILLING THE BOSSES. DEAL WITH IT.

Might as well give up on that arguement Cad. No matter how much evidence you pull or quote, the tools on this board won't believe you. The fact is NOBODY knows for sure, but assumptions mean more than Tigole's own words apparently, however dated they may be. Also, I vaguely recall Tigole saying it was 25% of lvl 60s, not 25% of the total population. So your 25% raiding population may actually be smaller than that. Surely these numbers have radically changed in 2 months time. http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...aiding+numbers

Stand in Iron Forge or Orgrimar by the bank and randomly inspect 50 people. I promise you you'll MC or higher BoP epics on more than 1 in 4.

Sure, because people who don't raid just stand around the IF/ORG bank all day. You are making wild assumptions with absolutley no data to back up any of it. At least Cad is quoting real numbers given by a real dev. But, whatever makes you feel better bro!!

All that aside, the World PvP implementation feels like a bandaid meant to appease a small portion of the populous. Trying to force world PvP into a couple zones is just stupid. Capitol cities would have been much better. Hell, rip off DAOC and the relic system if they must, it's not like WoW is a bastion of originality at this point, or ever. I agree that they need multiple rulesets, but this is Blizzard we are talking about. NEW RULESET PVP SERVERS AVAILABLE BY 2009. JUST BE PATIENT...

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Samflam

I know many guilds on my server are still working on MC and haven't killed Ragnaros. Or BWL and Nef. What you are saying simply is not a fact.

So you're betting that the percentage of guilds still working on MC nearly 2 years after it's release that haven't finished it significantly inflates the number of total people who have done the zone? It might increase it a couple percent, if you assume 1 in 10 are still working on it.

Originally Posted by Darkmyst

That was a number of months ago that he said that. Unless the subscriber base has grown by 25% since then it's almost certain those numbers have increased.

I'm sure you're familiar with a concept called turnover. People quit the game. New ones join. The 25% number was thrown out in May 2006. Unless he meant 25% of all players who have ever played the game, in which case the % can only go up - I find it likely to actually go down if you remove people who have quit the game and add in new players. Most of the raiding mentality people probably joined the game closer to it's inception. Since Tigole didn't qualify the number, we can only speculate. If you want to assume absolutely best case to make your point, you're welcome to it. It still doesn't look good.

The interesting thing about the number is that Tigole must have been proud of it, otherwise he wouldn't have said it. Clearly he thinks it's some kind of accomplishment that 25% of the playerbase has killed ragnaros. To me thats more amazing that any other revelation here.

Originally Posted by Darkmyst

Stand in Iron Forge or Orgrimar by the bank and randomly inspect 50 people. I promise you you'll MC or higher BoP epics on more than 1 in 4.

Standing by the bank is a bad way to do it. Raiders are bored with nothing to do between raids, they'll idle in front of the bank and a high % of them have epics.

Besides - I'm not concerned with who has 1 or 2 MC epics. My brother in law has gone to MC a total of 2 times, both on raids where 3/4 of the raid were alts. He got a couple of peices of nightslayer. He's absolutely not a raider, he hates raids. He just went because there was a good chance of getting something, and he's never gone again. Raiders will be fully decked in epics, like my hunter is. Unless of course you want to call anyone who has ever set foot in MC a raider. I don't.

[Deris]

I think the whole world pvp sham that is being stuffed down our throats is something to "hold us over lol omg" until TBC.

If it is - I almost feel bad for Blizzard, because they have so much riding on TBC that I don't think its possible for it to go the way they want it to.

[Antarius]

Originally Posted by Cad

Besides - I'm not concerned with who has 1 or 2 MC epics. My brother in law has gone to MC a total of 2 times, both on raids where 3/4 of the raid were alts. He got a couple of peices of nightslayer. He's absolutely not a raider, he hates raids. He just went because there was a good chance of getting something, and he's never gone again. Raiders will be fully decked in epics, like my hunter is. Unless of course you want to call anyone who has ever set foot in MC a raider. I don't.

The #s given were 25% of people who have level 60s have killed Ragnaros. He didn't say has killed ragnaros more than 40 times (certainly many raiders have at this point. You may not consider your brother in-law a raider, but he would, nevertheless, be included in that statistic.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Antarius

The #s given were 25% of people who have level 60s have killed Ragnaros. He didn't say has killed ragnaros more than 40 times (certainly many raiders have at this point. You may not consider your brother in-law a raider, but he would, nevertheless, be included in that statistic.

Yep, which makes the actual number of raiders EVEN WORSE. If people like him are included in the "Number of raiders lol" 25%, what the fuck are the other 75% doing? Not MC, thats what.

Also people like me skew the numbers, I have 4 level 60's all of which have killed ragnaros, and 2 of which have killed Nef. I wonder if Tigole meant accounts rather than characters?