World PvP preview [WoW]

[Invisus]

It's a shame that there aren't more handicaps built into WOW and other MMOs to support the carebear community. Lord knows they can't handle any real PvP without the crutches.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Invisus

It's a shame that there aren't more handicaps built into WOW and other MMOs to support the carebear community. Lord knows they can't handle any real PvP without the crutches.

It's stupid comments like this that make my teeth hurt.

[Froofy-D]

If they make epic faction rewards for outdoor PVP people will definitely participate. Preferably for slots where currently it is hard to get decent items through only PVP (ring, neck, trinket, helm) or maybe sword, axe, fist weapon counterparts for the Lobotomizer and Unstoppable Force.

[Invisus]

Carebears have been relying on crutches to compete in PvP for as long as MMOs have existed.

Bizanich talks about consequences for PKing innocent players. Consequences, if logically implemented and a coherent part of the game world, are ideal. In Ultima Online, murderers were not allowed within city limits. That makes sense and is a good, logical consequence to the act of murdering an innocent player.

An example of a crutch for carebears, again in Ultima Online, would be statloss for murderers. That doesn't make any logical sense in the gameworld -- why would one character lose stats when he dies, yet another doesn't? That was simply a crutch to give crying carebears a leg up.

Eventually a game will get the murder/consequence ratio right. Until then, you'll have to deal with bored PKers figuring out ways to grief and we'll have to deal with the endless bleating of carebear sheep.

[Etadanik]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

Because all raid warriors are prot spec? You dont know shit. DPS warrior is a very viable and wanted class choice on raids.

DPS warriors also get owned in PvP, depending on how they spec. Many of my friends are among the so-called "raid DPS" warriors and they get dominated by mages and warlocks in blues, epic or no epic. MS Warriors beat Fury Warriors unless the gear gap is so large that you might as well argue that only Alliance raids; and even then, what about them holy priests, huh? What about those resto druids and pure marksmen hunters? Combat rogues and SB-spam warlocks? Raiders do not typically have optimal PvP builds, and that tends to make up for the fact that they have better gear.

I have no idea the situation on your server. But it is the exception rather than the rule.
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/realmstats.php

Bullshit. Sort that list by A:H ratio. Now count the number of servers with > 2:1 A:H ratio. See how many of them are PvE? Now count the PvP servers and see their H:A ratios. See how many of them are nearly even? I'm talking about PvP servers, buddy - people who *play* to PvP. PvP players aren't like PvE players, and that page you linked just proves it. If World PvP is implemented I daresay Blizzard needs a separate ruleset for PvE and PvP, because people who play the game to fight others don't generate huge population imbalances - people who play the game to fight the game, do.

People don't like being called carebears, but guess what, there's a real reason for differentiating between PvE'ers and PvP'ers - the ratios speak for themselves.

I also notice this alot playing Alliance, even on PvP servers - they'd run right past Horde players, get ambushed, and die. Meanwhile, Horde attacks me every single time they see me. In an open PvP environment, that means Alliance will get dominated by Horde because half of them don't want to even fight. Sorry, but having dealt with this for the greater part of my WoW experience, I don't foresee a problem in TBC on the PvP servers.

Dont confuse running flags in WSG with what pvp is going to become. The outdoor pvp areas are really just the precursor to what is going to completly kill Horde on most servers with significant population imbalances.

You mean the PvE servers. But guess what, I doubt that the ratios for H:A are that way on the PvE servers for no reason. Maybe it has to do with the fact that, I don't know... All the non-PVP'ers joined the PVE server? In that case, even if world PvP was implemented on PvE, I doubt we'll see the massive Alliance ganking squads that you so fear.

Every single zone in TBC is open pvp. What does that mean on a 70/30 server? It means that Horde players are going to get ganked and ganked and ganked. As the raiding guilds with massively better gear level faster and get into the end zones faster with more numbers, Horde players are going to feel like Ice T in that movie with the white dudes chasing him around in the forest with guns.

Sounds like fun. You see this sort of situation and think "ZOMG imba." We see this situation and think "man, that's alot of targets!" Different mentality altogether, and that's why the PvP servers aren't nearly as bad in the A:H ratio.

out of your corpse, you can tell me again how gear makes no difference and how l33t you are, meanwhile, the Carebears are pissing on your head.

A good world PvP system would reward me for fighting against superior numbers. Again, it's been done, so no excuses.

Edit: And really, I don't see how this should be a different issue than EQ's PvP ruleset system. When you clicked 'Accept' on that server selection screen on a PvE server, you *KNEW* what you were getting into. PvE servers should remain precisely that - a server dedicated and designated for PvE, where PvP remains at a minimal level and is only "somewhat" supported. Meanwhile, a PvP server should be *dedicated* to the pursuit of PvP above all else, and something like full open World PvP rules should be tailored accordingly to the server's mode.

As have been said many times now, Blizzard has two core player base to satisfy - the PvE/ex-EQ crowd, who value instance raiding/grouping above all else, and the PvP/ex-DAOC/UO/SB/Warcraft III crowd, who value full-scale world PvP above all else. If it's obvious that a single ruleset won't satisfy both, which was the reason Blizzard implemented the different servers in the first place, then that philosophy should be consistently kept throughout the history of the game. That means, when it comes down to implementing something like world PvP, different rulesets should be inserted for different sorts of realms. PvP servers are just fine with full open PvP. PvE servers? I'm not even sure that you guys should get world PvP, given that the reason you joined that server was to *avoid* ganking.

Bottomline: Blizzard needs to understand that it has two different sorts of players and that their actions (or lack thereof) have generated primarily PvE-centric content since the game started. Now it's time to start focusing on the other side of the player base - those servers where bi-weekly Southshore raids still happen, and where people still have massive world PvP battles despite the coming of BGs. True PvP servers.

[Fadaar]

Gilneas 12/04 EST PVE 14,020 (75%) 4,551 (25%) 2.4:1 18,571

Why do you hate me so much God?

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

Claymore of Unholy Might
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand Sword
235 - 354 Damage Speed 3.60
(81.8 damage per second)
+20 Stamina
Requires Level 60
Equip: +98 Attack Power.

Gotta love the acronym. Theres already a CUM thread in the warrior forum.

[Dynalisia]

Originally Posted by Invisus

Carebears have been relying on crutches to compete in PvP for as long as MMOs have existed.

Bizanich talks about consequences for PKing innocent players. Consequences, if logically implemented and a coherent part of the game world, are ideal. In Ultima Online, murderers were not allowed within city limits. That makes sense and is a good, logical consequence to the act of murdering an innocent player.

An example of a crutch for carebears, again in Ultima Online, would be statloss for murderers. That doesn't make any logical sense in the gameworld -- why would one character lose stats when he dies, yet another doesn't? That was simply a crutch to give crying carebears a leg up.

Eventually a game will get the murder/consequence ratio right. Until then, you'll have to deal with bored PKers figuring out ways to grief and we'll have to deal with the endless bleating of carebear sheep.

Crutches like that are usually in place because many things that would prevent people from doing something criminal in real life are not there in a game world. If you kill someone in real life, you get thrown into jail for 20 years, good luck implementing that in an MMO.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

Persistence of your actions.

If I conquered this spot you cannot open another instance that negates my achievement. At some point you have to fight me back and win if you want to be in my place.

Basically what misses is context and a motivation outside your personal power growth. A reason to fight for and see the results of a battle.

denying content to other players, ooh griefing again =)

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Hi, he's in charge. that means he hired the people that hired them. That's why he earns more than everyone else on this board combined, responsibility has a price.

Yes, the buck stops with him, that's why he posted he'd deal with it. You attacked him, regardless.

Even Utnayan thought you went too far. That had me lol.

Originally Posted by dynalisia

Crutches like that are usually in place because many things that would prevent people from doing something criminal in real life are not there in a game world. If you kill someone in real life, you get thrown into jail for 20 years, good luck implementing that in an MMO.

Originally Posted by Quineloe

denying content to other players, ooh griefing again =)

More like making them earn it

[Invisus]

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

Crutches like that are usually in place because many things that would prevent people from doing something criminal in real life are not there in a game world. If you kill someone in real life, you get thrown into jail for 20 years, good luck implementing that in an MMO.

I'll humor your argument, though the absurdity of comparing an in game PK to a real life murderer is assinine.

The consequences to PKing in game need to be equal to the crime. Each game handles death differently, and some distinguish between a PvP death and PvE death. In WoW, when PKd, you lose a few minutes to run back to your corpse. Throwing the PKer in jail for 20 years, because the victim lost a few minutes, would be absolutely absurd.

If death was permanent in WoW, and all those PK victims lost their characters when killed, it would not only be just, but also necessary to have an equal consequence imposed upon the PKer when he was caught/killed.

In a game like WoW with no penalty for death, it does not make sense to have a penalty for killing. The larger the penalty for death, the larger the consequence for killing. It is just that simple.

[Invisus]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

denying content to other players, ooh griefing again =)

Fight for and earn that content. No free rides.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by Invisus

Fight for and earn that content. No free rides.

killing the mobs isn't a free ride, they don't fall over dead by themselves

Even Utnayan thought you went too far. That had me lol.

and suddenly you follow what Utnayan says? whatever, why don't you stick with the topic instead of flaming here? the other thread is still there. fucking moron.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

killing the mobs isn't a free ride, they don't fall over dead by themselves

If you make a world where two sides are fighting each other, then one side shouldn't cry when the other kills them.

Keep crying? Maybe?

Originally Posted by Quineloe

and suddenly you follow what Utnayan says? whatever, why don't you stick with the topic instead of flaming here? the other thread is still there. fucking moron.

That was just an offhand comment. Good to see you're still stinging from it.

[Tolanin]

Why the fuck dont we have 10 slightly different versions of 10/15 man BGs that it randoms between when you queue up to make it less gay... half the problem is playing the same fucking map OVER AND OVER is gay.

World pvp was gay as fuck and better only because atleast the scenery changed alot and it was less predicable what was going to happen... stop thinking world pvp was the shit, it wasnt, it was gay, it was a zerg, it was based on numbers and gear and it lagged a ton... it was better than BGs tho cause it wasnt so monotonous.

If we had a WSG with cool gadgets like a mario game to knock people into lava and shit and better power ups than just +health and +dmg... theres so much they should do with BGs that they just havent... seriously it cant take more than a few days for one person to design a BG.. so why dont we have more... even without a bunch of unique features in each it would be better to change maps every once in awhile.. what FPS would be decent if it had 2 fucking maps.