Opportunity needs to be moved or the rogue review is a waste

Murr · 07-10-2006, 05:42 PM

Say what you will about reviews and ours being good or bad, but if you're a raiding rogue who uses daggers, given today's preview, your spec will change in one of two ways:
A) Not at all. Not a single, goddamn point.
B) You sacrifice vital points in the Assassination tree just to get to 25 in Combat so you can pick up Weapon Expertise.

Why all the fuss? Simply put: dagger rogues are forced to drop 5 points on PURELY PvP talents in Subtlety just to get their primary scaling talent, Opportunity, which gives +20% to backstab damage. Both Camouflage and Master of Deception give 0, that's Z-E-R-O benefit in the raid game. Isn't this what reviews are supposed to do and streamline poor areas of trees such as this? Those rogues who do not use daggers have no such decision to make as all of their scaling talents appear in the Combat (read: raid) tree and they are forced to sacrifice nothing in order to obtain them.

It's an easy fix. You either move Opportunity to the first tier in Subtlety or remove its Backstab damage component (a less popular and viable option as this could damage Seal Fate specs) and place it on a new talent deep in the Combat tree. However any review that leaves Opportunity where it is is quite frankly garbage.

edit: Honestly, best place would be to put a 5 pt +20% backstab talent in Assassination on the 4th tier.

Wodin · 07-10-2006, 08:26 PM

I heartily endorse any solution that makes Opportunity more accessible. Being forced into tier 2 trispec to perform at equivalent levels is frustrating and was only marginally understandable when it actually bought you something. Now swords have been equalized with daggers, something needs to be done.

Plaeroma · 07-10-2006, 08:34 PM

Putting it deep into Combat would be just as shitty for pvp dagger rogues as the current placement is for pve dagger rogues. I'm not sure Assassination would be a good place for it either, considering how many other 5 pt talents are already there.

Personally I think it should be:

a) innate (just move imp ambush to it's current spot)

or

b) integrated into imp bs, with the ambush portion integrated into imp ambush

*Something* needs to be done at any rate, fucking over combat daggers isn't very nice.

Northerner · 07-10-2006, 09:35 PM

I would prefer to see some sort of sub talent in T1 that was at least slightly useful to a raiding rogue really. I know, it sure would be nice to not have to take any filler but frankly, every class pretty much does have to do so. The way that combat-swords are marginalizing combat-daggers is indeed annoying but ideally that would be addressed through mechanics, as naive as it is to think it will be. Ironically, I think they are trying to promote mace spec and claws and crap more than worrying about swords v daggers lately.

Murr · 07-10-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northerner

I would prefer to see some sort of sub talent in T1 that was at least slightly useful to a raiding rogue really. I know, it sure would be nice to not have to take any filler but frankly, every class pretty much does have to do so. The way that combat-swords are marginalizing combat-daggers is indeed annoying but ideally that would be addressed through mechanics, as naive as it is to think it will be. Ironically, I think they are trying to promote mace spec and claws and crap more than worrying about swords v daggers lately.

Still assfucks daggers out of Weap expertise, which is the entire point of the review, from a raid perspective.

Angerz · 07-10-2006, 10:40 PM

I went with option 3 and decided to go back swords.

Letania · 07-11-2006, 01:29 AM

They could just make Opp a 3 point investment, which is what I expected. Then dagger builds would look like this

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0eMoxZGcV0byz0bZx0h

Still hacky? Yeah. But at least you get full Lethality, Expertise, and enough SND to have it up full time if you don't waste any energy. They could throw us a bone and add something tier1 Subt for DPS too, Elemental Precision anyone?

nogi · 07-11-2006, 01:53 AM

dont see anything appealing for the real backstabber rogue. one could wonder how many pure assassination rogues are left anyway for pve.

imp ks? cough, helps more with pvp than anything else.
most changes are interesting for pvp ...

Quineloe · 07-11-2006, 02:19 AM

Somehow I fail to see the common sense behind these rogue demands that everything good should be possible to get with 51 talent points.

This isn't about tri-spec, this is about you unable to get all 3 backstab talents plus a 31.

mek · 07-11-2006, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quineloe

This isn't about tri-spec, this is about you unable to get all 3 backstab talents plus a 31.

which 31 pt talent would that be?

Quineloe · 07-11-2006, 02:55 AM

you tell me. Or maybe you want the weapon skill talent plus everything else? Talent choices are about making a choice, it's not shopping with a platinum credit card.

Zehn - Vhex · 07-11-2006, 03:03 AM

It's more a issue of rogues maintaining solid dps is a pain in the ass already thanks to every mob in the game having cleave and/or other short range AE's which make them a bitch to heal for hunter-in-blues type dps.

So you have the only really option being sword/mace rogues which kinda defeats the whole initial appeal of rogues in the first place.

Don't get me wrong. I feel absolutely no pity for them. Welcome to being pigeonholed like every other class except for warriors (Seriously, fuck them.)

Idealistically, they should allow re-stealthing while in combat if no mobs are targeting you, 60% chance to dodge AE's while stelathed, add some sort of minus agro mechanic to it as well. Would solve about 90% of the problems associated with rogues in pve content.

Of course then rogues would bitch about not being able to get improved ambush as well as lethality and improved weapon skills etc... but honestly guys, fuck you. I have to choose between spiritual healing and mental strength. Welcome to having to make shitty decisions.

Quineloe · 07-11-2006, 03:14 AM

oh yeah, seriously. fuck dps warriors. Nerf them hard, nerf the fucking fuck out of them. How can Blizzard let THIS:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7141/patchi7qr.jpg
continue (noth axe and nef axe, dwarf warrior)

gavinrad · 07-11-2006, 06:20 AM

wtf, i didnt know Frogloks were in WoW

Dyscord · 07-11-2006, 06:51 AM

I don't want to further derail the thread into a warrior hatefest, but I honestly LIKE warriors the way they are. And this is coming from a druid who can only dream of having such flexibility (you know... like a hybrid should have).

A lot of our raids depend on warrior dps. We roll with about 6-7 warriors, and love it. Best of both worlds, lots of tanking when needed, and acceptable if not insane dps when we need that. Varried from fight to fight. Naxx is a particular example where some fights require insane DPS while others require a bit more durability and tanknig.

Second, people say dps warriors are more surviable than rogues. Bull shit. Our dps warrior who does near rogue dps sacrifices EVERYTHING to do it. If a mob even looks at him funny he dies. Instantly. His vaunted 5.5k hps and 50% armor absorbtion doesn't mean shit. Zerker stance and no vanish/feint/evasion/stun means he's as good as dead the moment he draws aggro.

For the love of god don't rail against flexibility. 40 raid slots demand we have it. If you're going to complain about anything, complain about the other 4 or 5 classes that are completely pidgeon holed with no chance of any flexibiilty without total talent respec.

07-10-2006, 05:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Murr Token Gnome Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chapel Hill, NC Posts: 1,788 +8 Internets	Opportunity needs to be moved or the rogue review is a waste Say what you will about reviews and ours being good or bad, but if you're a raiding rogue who uses daggers, given today's preview, your spec will change in one of two ways: A) Not at all. Not a single, goddamn point. B) You sacrifice vital points in the Assassination tree just to get to 25 in Combat so you can pick up Weapon Expertise. Why all the fuss? Simply put: dagger rogues are forced to drop 5 points on PURELY PvP talents in Subtlety just to get their primary scaling talent, Opportunity, which gives +20% to backstab damage. Both Camouflage and Master of Deception give 0, that's Z-E-R-O benefit in the raid game. Isn't this what reviews are supposed to do and streamline poor areas of trees such as this? Those rogues who do not use daggers have no such decision to make as all of their scaling talents appear in the Combat (read: raid) tree and they are forced to sacrifice nothing in order to obtain them. It's an easy fix. You either move Opportunity to the first tier in Subtlety or remove its Backstab damage component (a less popular and viable option as this could damage Seal Fate specs) and place it on a new talent deep in the Combat tree. However any review that leaves Opportunity where it is is quite frankly garbage. edit: Honestly, best place would be to put a 5 pt +20% backstab talent in Assassination on the 4th tier. Last edited by Murr : 07-10-2006 at 06:05 PM.

07-10-2006, 08:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
Wodin Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,885 +2 Internets	I heartily endorse any solution that makes Opportunity more accessible. Being forced into tier 2 trispec to perform at equivalent levels is frustrating and was only marginally understandable when it actually bought you something. Now swords have been equalized with daggers, something needs to be done. __________________ Wodin - Troll Rogue - Elitist Jerks - Mal'Ganis

07-10-2006, 09:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
Northerner Shiny Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Calgary Posts: 994 -11 Internets	I would prefer to see some sort of sub talent in T1 that was at least slightly useful to a raiding rogue really. I know, it sure would be nice to not have to take any filler but frankly, every class pretty much does have to do so. The way that combat-swords are marginalizing combat-daggers is indeed annoying but ideally that would be addressed through mechanics, as naive as it is to think it will be. Ironically, I think they are trying to promote mace spec and claws and crap more than worrying about swords v daggers lately. __________________ ...

07-11-2006, 02:19 AM	#9 (permalink)
Quineloe Hard Rock Hallelujah Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,995 -25 Internets	Somehow I fail to see the common sense behind these rogue demands that everything good should be possible to get with 51 talent points. This isn't about tri-spec, this is about you unable to get all 3 backstab talents plus a 31. Last edited by Quineloe : 07-11-2006 at 02:21 AM.

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07-10-2006, 08:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
Plaeroma Incompatible Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NC Posts: 634 +0 Internets	Putting it deep into Combat would be just as shitty for pvp dagger rogues as the current placement is for pve dagger rogues. I'm not sure Assassination would be a good place for it either, considering how many other 5 pt talents are already there. Personally I think it should be: a) innate (just move imp ambush to it's current spot) or b) integrated into imp bs, with the ambush portion integrated into imp ambush Something needs to be done at any rate, fucking over combat daggers isn't very nice.

07-10-2006, 10:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
Angerz Rock and Roll Gangster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,791 -3 Internets	I went with option 3 and decided to go back swords.

07-11-2006, 01:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
Letania Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 38 +0 Internets	They could just make Opp a 3 point investment, which is what I expected. Then dagger builds would look like this http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0eMoxZGcV0byz0bZx0h Still hacky? Yeah. But at least you get full Lethality, Expertise, and enough SND to have it up full time if you don't waste any energy. They could throw us a bone and add something tier1 Subt for DPS too, Elemental Precision anyone?

07-11-2006, 01:53 AM	#8 (permalink)
nogi Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 15 +0 Internets	dont see anything appealing for the real backstabber rogue. one could wonder how many pure assassination rogues are left anyway for pve. imp ks? cough, helps more with pvp than anything else. most changes are interesting for pvp ...

07-11-2006, 02:55 AM	#11 (permalink)
Quineloe Hard Rock Hallelujah Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,995 -25 Internets	you tell me. Or maybe you want the weapon skill talent plus everything else? Talent choices are about making a choice, it's not shopping with a platinum credit card.

07-11-2006, 03:03 AM	#12 (permalink)
Zehn - Vhex Lord of the Dance Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 6,459 +61 Internets	It's more a issue of rogues maintaining solid dps is a pain in the ass already thanks to every mob in the game having cleave and/or other short range AE's which make them a bitch to heal for hunter-in-blues type dps. So you have the only really option being sword/mace rogues which kinda defeats the whole initial appeal of rogues in the first place. Don't get me wrong. I feel absolutely no pity for them. Welcome to being pigeonholed like every other class except for warriors (Seriously, fuck them.) Idealistically, they should allow re-stealthing while in combat if no mobs are targeting you, 60% chance to dodge AE's while stelathed, add some sort of minus agro mechanic to it as well. Would solve about 90% of the problems associated with rogues in pve content. Of course then rogues would bitch about not being able to get improved ambush as well as lethality and improved weapon skills etc... but honestly guys, fuck you. I have to choose between spiritual healing and mental strength. Welcome to having to make shitty decisions.

07-11-2006, 03:14 AM	#13 (permalink)
Quineloe Hard Rock Hallelujah Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,995 -25 Internets	oh yeah, seriously. fuck dps warriors. Nerf them hard, nerf the fucking fuck out of them. How can Blizzard let THIS: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7141/patchi7qr.jpg continue (noth axe and nef axe, dwarf warrior)

07-11-2006, 06:51 AM	#15 (permalink)
Dyscord Harvey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Command Carrier Posts: 1,858 +5 Internets	I don't want to further derail the thread into a warrior hatefest, but I honestly LIKE warriors the way they are. And this is coming from a druid who can only dream of having such flexibility (you know... like a hybrid should have). A lot of our raids depend on warrior dps. We roll with about 6-7 warriors, and love it. Best of both worlds, lots of tanking when needed, and acceptable if not insane dps when we need that. Varried from fight to fight. Naxx is a particular example where some fights require insane DPS while others require a bit more durability and tanknig. Second, people say dps warriors are more surviable than rogues. Bull shit. Our dps warrior who does near rogue dps sacrifices EVERYTHING to do it. If a mob even looks at him funny he dies. Instantly. His vaunted 5.5k hps and 50% armor absorbtion doesn't mean shit. Zerker stance and no vanish/feint/evasion/stun means he's as good as dead the moment he draws aggro. For the love of god don't rail against flexibility. 40 raid slots demand we have it. If you're going to complain about anything, complain about the other 4 or 5 classes that are completely pidgeon holed with no chance of any flexibiilty without total talent respec.