Opportunity needs to be moved or the rogue review is a waste - Page 2

Angerz · 07-11-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Somehow I fail to see the common sense behind these rogue demands that everything good should be possible to get with 51 talent points.

This isn't about tri-spec, this is about you unable to get all 3 backstab talents plus a 31.

A dagger rogue needs to spend roughly 16/8/10 to be as effective with daggers as a sword rogue who spends 16/2/0. (I include the 16 in ass cause everyone has to spend those points to not suck).

This isnt picking Spiritual healing or Mental strength. This is saying you have to spend 10 points in Shadow to use greater heal. And 5 of those points are going to go into making Mind Vision better.

Murr · 07-11-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quineloe

Somehow I fail to see the common sense behind these rogue demands that everything good should be possible to get with 51 talent points.

This isn't about tri-spec, this is about you unable to get all 3 backstab talents plus a 31.

Like Angerz said, it's a disparity between rogue specs, not us wanting every talent possible. Plus, if they just moved Opp around in Subtlety or put it in Ass where I suggested, we still couldn't get the 31 point talent in Combat without a significant sacrifice - IE, I doubt I'd spec it.

Qhue · 07-11-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angerz

This isnt picking Spiritual healing or Mental strength. This is saying you have to spend 10 points in Shadow to use greater heal. And 5 of those points are going to go into making Mind Vision better.

Excuse me. I'd like you to meet the 1.11 Arcane Mage tree.

Ben86 · 07-11-2006, 09:24 AM

Oh and please include claws in the weapon expertise talent. Why would that be left out?

edit: and how about one single viable off-hand claw not prefixed with GM or HWL?

Northerner · 07-11-2006, 09:34 AM

After looking over the new proposed trees, I must admit that there is some strangeness going on here. Raiding Human sword rogues should be even happier I imagine (and sword rogues in general of course will be better off) but daggers really are getting screwed by the talent placements.

Although I am not completely convinced that rogues as a whole need a ton more damage through talents and would rather see more independance from healers or useful non-combat abiities, this implementation looks a little strange indeed.

Wodin · 07-11-2006, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhue

Excuse me. I'd like you to meet the 1.11 Arcane Mage tree.

Oh you mean the one that gives you your choice of fewer resists and free -resists or an uninterruptible nuke, 10% chance of your spell being free, 15% mana regeneration in combat, and infinite mana on any encounter with a magical AE?

Believe me, the tears are flowing for you.

Letania · 07-11-2006, 10:09 AM

I really don't think Blizzard is keenly aware of where cutting edge PvE is, DPS-wise. They're behind the curve, and a couple of patches ago Rogues were very consistently #1 on fights that didn't disfavor them, with Fury warriors popping in as an anomoly.

Now we have mages, and mounting warrior itemization, and this review is where the pecking order needs to be reestablished. Fucking up combat daggers isn't helping.

Zehn - Vhex · 07-11-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angerz

This isnt picking Spiritual healing or Mental strength. This is saying you have to spend 10 points in Shadow to use greater heal. And 5 of those points are going to go into making Mind Vision better.

No, it's exactly the fucking same. I can either choose between more mana or more hps. Likewise, you can choose between more up front damage or a higher damage potential. Just because you have to delve into a 3rd tree and I have put up with pretty much shitty talents across the board doesn't mean shit and I -still- have to put up with shadow priests owning face in pvp.

Plaeroma · 07-11-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

No, it's exactly the fucking same. I can either choose between more mana or more hps. Likewise, you can choose between more up front damage or a higher damage potential. Just because you have to delve into a 3rd tree and I have put up with pretty much shitty talents across the board doesn't mean shit and I -still- have to put up with shadow priests owning face in pvp.

Reread the rest of his post. Namely this part:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angerz

A dagger rogue needs to spend roughly 16/8/10 to be as effective with daggers as a sword rogue who spends 16/2/0. (I include the 16 in ass cause everyone has to spend those points to not suck).

It's not about having your cake and eating it too. It's about daggers requiring more points (and in a different tree) than swords for pve, and as the trees are now it means weapons expertise is a bit out of reach for combat daggers but not combat swords.

Quineloe · 07-11-2006, 12:15 PM

Ok, then fuck sword rogues the same way. They have the cake and eat it.

Zehn - Vhex · 07-11-2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plaeroma

Stuff

Which I acknowledged. Yes it sucks but welcome to every other fucking class.

Cad · 07-11-2006, 12:34 PM

It's not really the same Zehn. There's no healing talents in shadow, much less one that causes all your heals to hit for 20% more, making it not optional.

Opportunity does need to be changed somehow, either just remove the talent and make swords/daggers equal by giving backstab 20% more damage innately, or move it to combat and make it a 3-pointer beside aggression.

Nakilos · 07-11-2006, 12:45 PM

I think the best solution is removing glancing blows from the game. Its utterly pointless and not at all properly itemized for (lets make some level 42 mail gloves the best PVE dps gloves in game for warriors, why not), and the weapon skill talent is placed so stupidly only 1 build will have it, which means thats the decidedly preferable spec for most raiding rogues.

I doubt they will move opportunity because its always been there, and its pretty obvious Blizzard didn't actually put any real thought into the review.

Zehn - Vhex · 07-11-2006, 12:50 PM

It's not about shadow. To make it more comparable, imagine making opportunity a 6th tier assassination talent.

And then you compare specs and how they achieve their goal. During the review shadow spec lost mental strength but gained meditation and inner focus.

The situations are -very- comparable. Or if you prefer a more straight up comparison, how about paladins who sure as shit don't have to give up any healing talents.

masteen · 07-11-2006, 01:06 PM

It's not truly comparable because the weapon is involved with the rogue equation, and (other than the +dam) a priest's weapon is largely irrelevant.

You're promoting a choice based on what type of weapon a rogue uses, and I find that objectionable because of the unpredictability of the drop rates. Making PvP = dagger and PvE = swords is a stupid game mechanic.

07-11-2006, 09:24 AM	#19 (permalink)
Ben86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 20 +0 Internets	Oh and please include claws in the weapon expertise talent. Why would that be left out? edit: and how about one single viable off-hand claw not prefixed with GM or HWL? Last edited by Ben86 : 07-11-2006 at 09:39 AM.

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07-11-2006, 09:34 AM	#20 (permalink)
Northerner Shiny Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Calgary Posts: 1,049 -13 Internets	After looking over the new proposed trees, I must admit that there is some strangeness going on here. Raiding Human sword rogues should be even happier I imagine (and sword rogues in general of course will be better off) but daggers really are getting screwed by the talent placements. Although I am not completely convinced that rogues as a whole need a ton more damage through talents and would rather see more independance from healers or useful non-combat abiities, this implementation looks a little strange indeed.

07-11-2006, 10:09 AM	#22 (permalink)
Letania Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 38 +0 Internets	I really don't think Blizzard is keenly aware of where cutting edge PvE is, DPS-wise. They're behind the curve, and a couple of patches ago Rogues were very consistently #1 on fights that didn't disfavor them, with Fury warriors popping in as an anomoly. Now we have mages, and mounting warrior itemization, and this review is where the pecking order needs to be reestablished. Fucking up combat daggers isn't helping.

07-11-2006, 12:15 PM	#25 (permalink)
Quineloe Hard Rock Hallelujah Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,098 -30 Internets	Ok, then fuck sword rogues the same way. They have the cake and eat it.

07-11-2006, 12:34 PM	#27 (permalink)
Cad Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,397	It's not really the same Zehn. There's no healing talents in shadow, much less one that causes all your heals to hit for 20% more, making it not optional. Opportunity does need to be changed somehow, either just remove the talent and make swords/daggers equal by giving backstab 20% more damage innately, or move it to combat and make it a 3-pointer beside aggression.

07-11-2006, 12:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
Nakilos Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,591 +0 Internets	I think the best solution is removing glancing blows from the game. Its utterly pointless and not at all properly itemized for (lets make some level 42 mail gloves the best PVE dps gloves in game for warriors, why not), and the weapon skill talent is placed so stupidly only 1 build will have it, which means thats the decidedly preferable spec for most raiding rogues. I doubt they will move opportunity because its always been there, and its pretty obvious Blizzard didn't actually put any real thought into the review.

07-11-2006, 12:50 PM	#29 (permalink)
Zehn - Vhex Lord of the Dance Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 6,661 +66 Internets	It's not about shadow. To make it more comparable, imagine making opportunity a 6th tier assassination talent. And then you compare specs and how they achieve their goal. During the review shadow spec lost mental strength but gained meditation and inner focus. The situations are -very- comparable. Or if you prefer a more straight up comparison, how about paladins who sure as shit don't have to give up any healing talents.

07-11-2006, 01:06 PM	#30 (permalink)
masteen Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,311	It's not truly comparable because the weapon is involved with the rogue equation, and (other than the +dam) a priest's weapon is largely irrelevant. You're promoting a choice based on what type of weapon a rogue uses, and I find that objectionable because of the unpredictability of the drop rates. Making PvP = dagger and PvE = swords is a stupid game mechanic.