"End Game" in MMO's

[Immy]

Just a simple question, how many people as they get older find the "end game" in MMO's to be a complete waste of time compared to other games/mediums?

I'm not even sure if it's a case of time, perhaps my views on gaming are changing but it seems that to drop 5 hours a day "farming" something just doesn't entertain me anymore (oh nos I'm going casual). I find I enjoy playing games such as Diablo/Warcraft (RTS), which do not have "minimum time per day" associated with it to actually enjoy the game.

Don't get me wrong, I still love MMO's but for myself and most of my friends, who were all very hardcore raiders at a time...enjoy just leveling up characters much more.

Basically I'm wondering if this is the trend in MMO's or am I just getting old

[Cuppycake]

I'm not sure what it is...but I agree with you.

In EQ I wanted to be the best, I didn't play any other video games. I had no problem playing the game for up to 10 hours a day, it was always fun to me. I wanted to be in the best guild I could be in and busted my ass trying to get there. Now, I don't really care about being on top, don't want to be obligated to play at certain times.

I've definately become more casual as I've aged a little bit, and I don't think its the 'trend' in MMO's. I know tons of people who've basically devoted their life to WoW since it was released. There are lots and lots of people who want to be the best in WoW and don't mind spending countless hours farming rep and reagents. No thanks, not for me. I can hardly find the time to sit and play a game straight for more than an hour, and that's is I don't get bored =P

[Antarius]

You're just getting old, lots of people strive to be the best in WoW, you're just not one of them.

[Cybsled]

My theory:

End game raiding starts to become a job basically. An older person has probably worked a real job more then a younger person, thus they get tired of playing a "fake job".

You have to adhere to schedules, have to pay attention, have to do unfun stuff even if you dont want to, etc. IMO it wears on older people more because it starts to become a mirror of what they have to do 8+ hours a day, 40+ days a week.

[Magnum PI]

Originally Posted by Antarius

You're just getting old, lots of people strive to be the best in WoW, you're just not one of them.

It's the law of diminishing returns. If we all started playing EQ in 1999 at the age of 13 and there was never another MMO produced we would probably play it for 10 years or more for the community. But since there are other MMO graphic games to choose from we can break off and be more impersonal and that is what makes these MMO's less appealing. Now you focus on killing boss_mob_01 to boss_mob_100 and not have a world wide community to interact with.

I don't play EQ/WoW all the time because it isn't a great game in it's mechanics, I don't play it because there is no server wide community for me to care about. This is what made Ultima rule for so long.

It's like baseball. You can get to the World Series all you want but if you don't have fans in the stadium cheering you on because they care about what happens to your team, you are not going to be motivated to play.

[Turzem]

In EQ1 I would raid hardcore, 5-6 times a week for 4 hours. I basically work, EQ'd and slept. That's it. Got tired of it.

My ideal guild in a game would raid every day, but would have no raid log-on requirements, so there would be a good mix of people any time you went.

[Turzem]

EQ had a great set of server-wide communities though! Virtually every server had at least its own forum somewhere, run by a few people that played. Then the class-boards brought everything together. I had the feeling of emptiness in WoW, and the fact that almost every tiem I group up it will be with somebody completely new that I have never heard of before. It's hard to gain any sense of community when you are dealing with millions of people rather than thousands, the scale is all wrong.

I am hoping that EQ2 has the same kind of community that EQ1 had. I want to be able to do a /who all lfg and recognize half the names.

[Immy]

Originally Posted by Magnum PI

It's the law of diminishing returns. If we all started playing EQ in 1999 at the age of 13 and there was never another MMO produced we would probably play it for 10 years or more for the community. But since there are other MMO graphic games to choose from we can break off and be more impersonal and that is what makes these MMO's less appealing. Now you focus on killing boss_mob_01 to boss_mob_100 and not have a world wide community to interact with.

I don't play EQ/WoW all the time because it isn't a great game in it's mechanics, I don't play it because there is no server wide community for me to care about. This is what made Ultima rule for so long.

It's like baseball. You can get to the World Series all you want but if you don't have fans in the stadium cheering you on because they care about what happens to your team, you are not going to be motivated to play.

Yeah, I should have rephrased my question for 1st generation MMO players (UO/Early EQ) when the community was much smaller and closer. And I do agree with what you've said, and I think it's one of the biggest issues with MMO's now...it's thinned out quite a bit. Not the content, if anything thats better than it ever was but the community.

In early days UO, it was a case where you'd see people in other guilds 5-6 times in a playing period, and you familiarize yourself with them and their tactics since you're bound to run into them quite alot.

In EQ guilds were made and you pretty much knew EVERYONE on any major guild. Intimately usually when you're fighting for spawns.

In WoW I cannot tell you how many recruits my guild has gotten that I did not even know existed...characters just pop up out of nowhere in that game it seems. The turnover rate in WoW is abysmal compared to every other MMO I've ever played, and it's not WoW it's just the way MMO's have become.

[Magnum PI]

Originally Posted by Immy

Yeah, I should have rephrased my question for 1st generation MMO players (UO/Early EQ) when the community was much smaller and closer. And I do agree with what you've said, and I think it's one of the biggest issues with MMO's now...it's thinned out quite a bit. Not the content, if anything thats better than it ever was but the community.

I look at it like baseballs free agents.

No one in Ohio gives two shits about the Big Red Machine today because the Pete Rose, Ken Griffey, Joe Morgan, Jose Canseco, and the Johnny Bench's of 2006 will only be around a couple years until someone pays more. Whereas those players who were around in the 1970's started and finished their careers for one or two teams developed roots in the community and we grew to love/hate them--either way we talked about them. They mattered to us, as they became part of us. The future of MMO's will take on a more McDonald's flavor of the month aspect.

In the future you will see 1 Big Dog MMO and the rest to survive will consolidate into a All Access Station type pass to avoid extinction.

[WarderX]

It was a lot more enjoyable when I was 15 or whatever, sure.

Now adays, not so much, but... it's still better than sitting around bored when I'm in between good books.

[Lyenae]

I just hate the obligations that come with a raid guild. If you make the mistake of playing a vital class and you are expected/required to log on 5+ nights a week or be guild kicked, it sucks.

Depending on how well developed the MMO's raiding game is (who really fucking cares, they all blow), it's like being forced to play the shittiest part of the game every damn day.

[Jait]

Originally Posted by Immy

Just a simple question, how many people as they get older find the "end game" in MMO's to be a complete waste of time compared to other games/mediums?

It's fine. The real problem for me has been finding *mature* players who play those hours. It's always been the case that Time > Skill in MMOs, but it's getting godamnridiculous. I'm about ready to offer up my soul for a steady group of real gamers in their 20's/30's with jobs/families. Most people who are willing to logon from 7pm to 11pm aren't those types. And the few that are quickly get annoyed and go back to something else.

You'd think you could rally a bunch of teenagers around the notion of "Getting shit dead". But that's even becoming a harder task each year at almost an aggregate rate. I fear for the future. Or I'm just turning into an old codger. Take your pick.

[castarocks]

i agree with you - I too enjoy leveling up new characters because i can do it on my own time and do not have to adhere to a strict schedule.

Is there such thing as a single player MMO? where you can still interact with people but progress on your own time therefore having all the same oppurtunity as anyone else on your shard but not having to rely on 39 other people to make it happen.

[Digo]

The only time I enjoy leveling up is when a new game or server is released. The reason is twofold and very simple:

1. I love competition. The race to hit max level and begin dominating content is a thrill. Most people that play MMOs at the raiding level are competitive by nature, so this suits them.

2. Constant power increases. When you're leveling up a new character on a fresh server, everything is an upgrade. Swapping items around with guildmates and friends makes every drop meaningful. Tradeskillers actually make products that are meaningful. I still remember getting a pair of pearl-handled daggers from our guild blacksmith at level 15 and being thrilled about it.

This feeling diminishes with time. Even getting a piece of T3 armor isn't very exciting because it's a small upgrade. Unfortunately, such is the reality of a game where the itemizers are very careful about curbing power inflation, and rightly so.

What I would like to see in a future MMO is a tradeskill system that rewards tradeskillers by making their products desirable even to an end-game raider. I believe that you do this not by creating an entirely independent item, but by upgrading existing ones, much like enchanters do in WoW. Combine two existing weapons (melt them down or disassemble), then rebuild them into a new product. The recipes would be specific to particular bosses, which allows the recipes to progress with the current itemization.

Ex: Combine 2 arcanite bars, 4 enchanted thorium, 1 cured rugged hide, and Baron Rivendare's broken blade to forge an ilvl 55 epic 2h sword.

All recipes would be difficult quest rewards, not based on luck. Nothing pisses me off more than farming an instance for months only to have some pissant newbie guild score the recipe you've wanted for months. Control the entry of items into the economy by using the real time calendar if you must, but don't make it random. In other words, for one quest step, there is a 7 day delay after you turn in a quest item before you receive the next step of the quest in the mail.

[Kolle]

while we're tossing stuff out here

I'd like to see a game/raid system that didn't require certain classes. You don't need a healer. You don't need a tank. If you have them then great, you can get the quest done. If you have other classes then you can complete the quest as well. Same thing for raiding. What changes is how you play. The strats would be different, but all equally challenging.