Is WoW a positive or negative for future MMORPGs?

Nerion · 07-05-2006, 12:54 AM

I was talking with several of my friends today about the future of MMORPGs and eventually the topic came up about what is WoW's place in history. Several guys tended to think that WoW was the best thing ever for MMORPGs because it brought the genre public, therefore insuring more MMORPGs for the future with better funding and publicity. The other camp believed that WoW has ruined the future BY making it so public and pop cultured. What made this so weird that it wasn't a hardcore vs casual debate as I had thought. Several hardcore raiders, who even though hated WoW's mechanics, actually agreed that it was good overrall for MMORPGs. However, a friend who was a weekend warrior from EQ subscribed to the idea that WoW has possibly ruined the future for great MMORPGs by Mcdonaldtizing it as he said.

What do you guys think? WoW has over 50% of the market and has multiplied the base substantially. Has WoW paved the way for generic copies of itself for the future or widened the road and broadened the paths leading off of it?

Gnome Eater · 07-05-2006, 12:58 AM

Very very very good thing for MMORPG and players. Mostly because WoW is now the gold standard against which all future MMORPG's must be measured, and that shitty games will no longer cut it.

The only possible negatives is that people trivialize the reason for WoW's success, and try to emulate those simplistically (easy to get into, fast levelling curve) without realizing that the game also has a huge depth and released with an incredible amount of very beautiful and diverse content.

Dynalisia · 07-05-2006, 01:08 AM

Anything that's really good will be commercially expanded upon, it's a simple fact of life. People that liked the niche that really good thing occupied will always be disappointed when their concept is changed to be taken to a broader audience, which is another. The diffirence is mostly made by overall polish (graphics would take a MUD's 'overall quality' down, in this definition) and marketing.

So basically if you worry that WoW ruined the genre, you're either going to be shit out of luck, or have to settle for a less polished game that does satisfy your coinaisseur needs.

Nerion · 07-05-2006, 01:08 AM

Heres my own view. WoW has set a standard that is both good and bad. On one hand, people will expect games to be playable and bugs will not be tolerated. Games like Shadowbane where half the time the deteriming factor in battles is lag will just not be acceptable. Also, the idea behind the graphics is truly revolutionary, imo, allowing for a game to be "fresh" much longer. On the other hand, they also set a standard for making the genre viable to every player and attempting to create what I could best describe as mass equality at the price of any glorious victory. As much as anyone tries to bullshit, you can not have a true victory without a clear loser. The more you marginalize victory to create equality, the more fun you tone down in a competitive multiplayer game.

I think WoW will end up being the stepping stone to something better for the industry. This game will allow for other MMORPGs to be built in the future that without WoW would have never had a chance to see the light of day. What these games will be like is yet to be determined.

Quineloe · 07-05-2006, 01:19 AM

Quote:

The other camp believed that WoW has ruined the future BY making it so public and pop cultured

let me guess, this camp also believe in true and untrue metal and other bullshit like that?

FoghornDeadhorn · 07-05-2006, 01:25 AM

I think the answer is very clear, you need to look at any industry that went from something that existed, and was enjoyed, to being massively infused with money -- which is basically what having an MMO of WoW's subscription base accomplishes.

Bringing money in increases the potential for investment, increases the amount of people trying to cash in, and eventually broadens the genre to the point that the more creative forces can create their niche games, and create them with a decent budget.

The McDonalds analogy is really a poor one as we covered elsewhere, and just trying to insult WoW's success by trying to imply that it's a shitty but popular product. Referring to WoW as a blockbuster is much more accurate. It has broad appeal and tells the industry just how much money you can make with a homerun. It also gets people going to the theaters, which is important.

Consider what is done in film today. Consider the broad implications of the massive amounts of money that is spent at the top, trickling down to the bottom in the form of older technologies made cheaper to produce through process refinements, R&D long ago paid for, and people with experience. These are the same things you're looking at from WoW. Yes, it applies somewhat less as the technologies used aren't exactly unique to the genre, but it applies in that an MMO house, something I'm sure you'll start seeing more of, will have the infrastructure to do as NCSoft does, only, we can hope, better.

It brought the genre into the mainstream. The bottom line is that you'll see more attempts at WoW-like success (this will be shitty) as well as knowingly low-budget products. All we can hope is for the big projects to continue to be successful as they will pave the way for the little ones.

Jooka · 07-05-2006, 01:45 AM

WoW clearly sucks, I mean bringing a MMO that raiders, casuals, PvP'ers and soloers all live together in a community at once and bitch about needing attention is clearly not the way of the future. And, that future wont include 6 million subscribers to any other MMO who thinks any of these players arn't worthy of $15/month.

Just ask Brad, he wont budge except to make the game he wants to play, business is not his branch of education obviously.

Nerion · 07-05-2006, 01:54 AM

I don't think making a game that appeals to the masses is a bad thing. However, the sacrifices that were made to make it mass appealing involved aspects of the game I personally enjoyed, such as clear victories and losses. That is my PERSONAL view and I can understand people who are not extremely invested into video games wishing to accomplish what is the standard for great and an easy experience. I think also as people get a feel for WoW and how to function in an MMORPG they will eventually want more from the game. This is why I think WoW is good overrall.

Soriak · 07-05-2006, 04:26 AM

Attracting new players to the mmorpg market can't be a bad thing - it will justify bigger investments down the road. What worries me somewhat is the cheap ass tactics Blizzard gets away with: Login queues, battleground queues, bittorrent patcher, the non-existant customer service - hell you can't even download the game from them if you lost your CDs.

On the other hand for me it means Sony realized being #2 requires them to put in more effort - and it shows in EQ2. So at least I get to experience those benefits thanks to WoW

Azeth · 07-05-2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

Very very very good thing for MMORPG and players. Mostly because WoW is now the gold standard against which all future MMORPG's must be measured, and that shitty games will no longer cut it.

The only possible negatives is that people trivialize the reason for WoW's success, and try to emulate those simplistically (easy to get into, fast levelling curve) without realizing that the game also has a huge depth and released with an incredible amount of very beautiful and diverse content.

Do you really believe that McDonald's #2 World of Warcraft is the basis for which future games will be compared? You uh... ever play that pre EQII game? what's the name again?

EDIT: WoW is horrible for the MMORPG market. World of Warcraft to MMORPG"s, is Good Charlotte to music. They developed solely based off what pop-culture america wanted to play/hear, and are now spawning look alikes that are even worse (if fathomable) than the original. Am I saying WoW is a bad game and you should stop playing because I'm right and you're wrong? Maybe.

But seriously, I'm not. However, you can't deny that WoW has given license to future MMORPGs to revamp the genre so they can better market the game. EQ was so good because it came from 4 D&D nerds sitting around imagining what they were doing if connected to thousands of other people. WoW is so lame, in my opinion, because it came from Dungeon Masters turned Marketing Majors.

Bizanich · 07-05-2006, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azeth

Do you really believe that McDonald's #2 World of Warcraft is the basis for which future games will be compared? You uh... ever play that pre EQII game? what's the name again?

I agree with him, it will be. Just because all of us old farts played EQ doesn't mean that the newcomers did.

And there are a lot more newcomers who will compare new games to their first MMO, which was WoW.

Azeth · 07-05-2006, 05:07 AM

I totally disagree. I was born in 1986, therefore I was never around to enjoy Pink Floyd during their time. However, I'm very into Radiohead, The Mars Volta, Iron and Wine etc, and I compare most of what I listen to, to bands I wasn't even alive to enjoy.

EDIT: And I do this because history, and simply good taste in music, tell me that this band was fantastic.

Itzena · 07-05-2006, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azeth

Do you really believe that McDonald's #2 World of Warcraft is the basis for which future games will be compared? You uh... ever play that pre EQII game? what's the name again?

EDIT: WoW is horrible for the MMORPG market. World of Warcraft to MMORPG"s, is Good Charlotte to music. They developed solely based off what pop-culture america wanted to play/hear, and are now spawning look alikes that are even worse (if fathomable) than the original. Am I saying WoW is a bad game and you should stop playing because I'm right and you're wrong? Maybe.

But seriously, I'm not. However, you can't deny that WoW has given license to future MMORPGs to revamp the genre so they can better market the game. EQ was so good because it came from 4 D&D nerds sitting around imagining what they were doing if connected to thousands of other people. WoW is so lame, in my opinion, because it came from Dungeon Masters turned Marketing Majors.

What's your name on the Vanguard boards, out of interest?

Kodylan · 07-05-2006, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Do you really believe that McDonald's #2 World of Warcraft is the basis for which future games will be compared? You uh... ever play that pre EQII game? what's the name again?

You do realize that the core gameplay in WoW is very similar to EQ, right? There are some class mechanics that are *very* different, and the combat is a bit more fast-paced, but it's very much so a similar style of game. WoW is a refined EverQuest, plain and simple. It follows a similar progression style that EQ did, now it just needs to deliver some post-level cap progression other than raiding(and rep grinds, unless they start offering abilities and talents through reputations), and it'll be golden.

I played EQ for nearly 5 years and I can't say I'm disappointed in WoW at all. I also think the game has done a very good thing for the genre - it's picked it up of its feet after massive failure after massive failure of releases. EQ was growing stale even before WoW entered beta - much more and I think people would have been searching for a new genre to spend their time in.

Basically, this game saved the genre. And you think that's a bad thing?

Bizanich · 07-05-2006, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azeth

I totally disagree. I was born in 1986, therefore I was never around to enjoy Pink Floyd during their time. However, I'm very into Radiohead, The Mars Volta, Iron and Wine etc, and I compare most of what I listen to, to bands I wasn't even alive to enjoy.

EDIT: And I do this because history, and simply good taste in music, tell me that this band was fantastic.

You missed my point. Do most people compare music to Pink Floyd these days? No.

It's a bad analogy, anyways, as music doesn't date itself like an MMO (or any game) can.

A better analogy would be....

Do most people compare new FPS to Quake/Unreal, or Marathon/Wolfenstein 3D?

Do most people compare RTS to Dune, or to Warcraft/Starcraft/C&C?

[edit] Answer: They compare them to the newer, blockbuster games. That's why WoW will be compared to versus EQ more as time passes.

07-05-2006, 12:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
Nerion likes to hear himself talk Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 368	Is WoW a positive or negative for future MMORPGs? I was talking with several of my friends today about the future of MMORPGs and eventually the topic came up about what is WoW's place in history. Several guys tended to think that WoW was the best thing ever for MMORPGs because it brought the genre public, therefore insuring more MMORPGs for the future with better funding and publicity. The other camp believed that WoW has ruined the future BY making it so public and pop cultured. What made this so weird that it wasn't a hardcore vs casual debate as I had thought. Several hardcore raiders, who even though hated WoW's mechanics, actually agreed that it was good overrall for MMORPGs. However, a friend who was a weekend warrior from EQ subscribed to the idea that WoW has possibly ruined the future for great MMORPGs by Mcdonaldtizing it as he said. What do you guys think? WoW has over 50% of the market and has multiplied the base substantially. Has WoW paved the way for generic copies of itself for the future or widened the road and broadened the paths leading off of it?

07-05-2006, 01:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Dynalisia Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The land of sunshine Posts: 1,480 -4 Internets	Anything that's really good will be commercially expanded upon, it's a simple fact of life. People that liked the niche that really good thing occupied will always be disappointed when their concept is changed to be taken to a broader audience, which is another. The diffirence is mostly made by overall polish (graphics would take a MUD's 'overall quality' down, in this definition) and marketing. So basically if you worry that WoW ruined the genre, you're either going to be shit out of luck, or have to settle for a less polished game that does satisfy your coinaisseur needs. Last edited by Dynalisia : 07-05-2006 at 01:14 AM.

07-05-2006, 01:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
FoghornDeadhorn Avarice Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Rolling down Rodeo with a shotgun Posts: 3,687 +14 Internets	I think the answer is very clear, you need to look at any industry that went from something that existed, and was enjoyed, to being massively infused with money -- which is basically what having an MMO of WoW's subscription base accomplishes. Bringing money in increases the potential for investment, increases the amount of people trying to cash in, and eventually broadens the genre to the point that the more creative forces can create their niche games, and create them with a decent budget. The McDonalds analogy is really a poor one as we covered elsewhere, and just trying to insult WoW's success by trying to imply that it's a shitty but popular product. Referring to WoW as a blockbuster is much more accurate. It has broad appeal and tells the industry just how much money you can make with a homerun. It also gets people going to the theaters, which is important. Consider what is done in film today. Consider the broad implications of the massive amounts of money that is spent at the top, trickling down to the bottom in the form of older technologies made cheaper to produce through process refinements, R&D long ago paid for, and people with experience. These are the same things you're looking at from WoW. Yes, it applies somewhat less as the technologies used aren't exactly unique to the genre, but it applies in that an MMO house, something I'm sure you'll start seeing more of, will have the infrastructure to do as NCSoft does, only, we can hope, better. It brought the genre into the mainstream. The bottom line is that you'll see more attempts at WoW-like success (this will be shitty) as well as knowingly low-budget products. All we can hope is for the big projects to continue to be successful as they will pave the way for the little ones. __________________

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07-05-2006, 12:58 AM	#2 (permalink)
Gnome Eater Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 927 -4 Internets	Very very very good thing for MMORPG and players. Mostly because WoW is now the gold standard against which all future MMORPG's must be measured, and that shitty games will no longer cut it. The only possible negatives is that people trivialize the reason for WoW's success, and try to emulate those simplistically (easy to get into, fast levelling curve) without realizing that the game also has a huge depth and released with an incredible amount of very beautiful and diverse content.

07-05-2006, 01:08 AM	#4 (permalink)
Nerion likes to hear himself talk Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 368	Heres my own view. WoW has set a standard that is both good and bad. On one hand, people will expect games to be playable and bugs will not be tolerated. Games like Shadowbane where half the time the deteriming factor in battles is lag will just not be acceptable. Also, the idea behind the graphics is truly revolutionary, imo, allowing for a game to be "fresh" much longer. On the other hand, they also set a standard for making the genre viable to every player and attempting to create what I could best describe as mass equality at the price of any glorious victory. As much as anyone tries to bullshit, you can not have a true victory without a clear loser. The more you marginalize victory to create equality, the more fun you tone down in a competitive multiplayer game. I think WoW will end up being the stepping stone to something better for the industry. This game will allow for other MMORPGs to be built in the future that without WoW would have never had a chance to see the light of day. What these games will be like is yet to be determined.

07-05-2006, 01:45 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jooka Incidents Happen Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 966 -44 Internets	WoW clearly sucks, I mean bringing a MMO that raiders, casuals, PvP'ers and soloers all live together in a community at once and bitch about needing attention is clearly not the way of the future. And, that future wont include 6 million subscribers to any other MMO who thinks any of these players arn't worthy of $15/month. Just ask Brad, he wont budge except to make the game he wants to play, business is not his branch of education obviously.

07-05-2006, 01:54 AM	#8 (permalink)
Nerion likes to hear himself talk Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 368	I don't think making a game that appeals to the masses is a bad thing. However, the sacrifices that were made to make it mass appealing involved aspects of the game I personally enjoyed, such as clear victories and losses. That is my PERSONAL view and I can understand people who are not extremely invested into video games wishing to accomplish what is the standard for great and an easy experience. I think also as people get a feel for WoW and how to function in an MMORPG they will eventually want more from the game. This is why I think WoW is good overrall.

07-05-2006, 04:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
Soriak Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 4,769 +29 Internets	Attracting new players to the mmorpg market can't be a bad thing - it will justify bigger investments down the road. What worries me somewhat is the cheap ass tactics Blizzard gets away with: Login queues, battleground queues, bittorrent patcher, the non-existant customer service - hell you can't even download the game from them if you lost your CDs. On the other hand for me it means Sony realized being #2 requires them to put in more effort - and it shows in EQ2. So at least I get to experience those benefits thanks to WoW

07-05-2006, 05:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
Azeth Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 91 +0 Internets	I totally disagree. I was born in 1986, therefore I was never around to enjoy Pink Floyd during their time. However, I'm very into Radiohead, The Mars Volta, Iron and Wine etc, and I compare most of what I listen to, to bands I wasn't even alive to enjoy. EDIT: And I do this because history, and simply good taste in music, tell me that this band was fantastic.