Hero Classes dead in the water

[Man0warr]

Hero classes would be a nightmare to balance, worse than it is now. I understand why they are hesitant until they know it won't fuck up the game.

And Siege weapons..what could they really be used for? Maybe world pvp objectives, towers that can be destroyed, etc

[Zehn - Vhex]

They really had no interest in balance to begin with or they would have made skills operate differently in pvp and pve and given shaman and paladins to both factions.

This isn't about balance. This is about being lazy. 8(

[Digits]

Blizzard =(

[Rythonn]

By Tseric

We are interested in and discussing alternate character progression. That is what is on the table.

'Hero Classes' is a label which has carried weight with players, but essentially has little real meaning. What exactly is a 'Hero Class'? No one can say, because no one knows, but they'll surely get their own ideas about it(ZOMG, Blademaster!). If we were to implement some sort of progression that we didn't call 'Hero Classes' it would upset players by name alone.

A basic notion sketched out years back may or may not be viable in the current model of the game. To treat such a notion as a promise of certain functions for the game is simply going to cause people to say, "But, that's not what I wanted when I thought of Hero Classes."

So much thought and expectation has gone into the phrase 'Hero Class' that anything implemented can't really hope to meet expectations. This is something we would like to avoid.

So, while we are keeping basic intent of the original comments made a couple years back, too much has changed to rely on a single term used to describe current design approach.

In summary, the question of "Are Hero Classes going to be implemeted or not?" is simply the wrong question to ask. Hence the confusion seen earlier today. The questions asked were yes/no, when neither yes or no is the right response.

The bolded part cracks me up. What is a Hero class? These people could write for congress.

[Duppin]

People are still surprised when the CMs spout nothing but mealymouthed doublespeak?

Have you just not been reading the WoW boards, ever?

They exist for two reasons: to obfuscate the statements of developers into a form such that they can't possibly be held accountable for broken promises; and to prevent players from having direct access to developers.

That's all.

[Rythonn]

Oh i'm not suprised at all, just amused at how far this one is going.

[Hal2005]

A Hero Class.

n. Used to define a PC that has done feats so great, the whole server should know them and/or their deeds.

ie.

Server First kills on 40% or more of the content (It is logged, thus that much is a clear concept of defining the 'elite' ).

Top Win / Loss percentage in PVP (because there are very skilled pvp teams that simply don't have 19 hours a day to play).

You had the stamina and willpower to grind out every quest and do every event on the server.

etc
etc
ad nausea

What a 'Hero' should give you?

In true warcraft manner, a hero amped your war party, either in passive or active DPS or support actions.

A paladin for example could have a mass revival spell. Or a Higher hitting consecration, or aura of windfury.

A Mage could have any of the random 'once per day, blow the shit out of hell' abilities they don't already possess.

Is this balanced? Would every player and their 80 year old grandmother be able to get to 'hero' status?
Should a player who puts 5 hours a week into WoW have the same 'hero' level as the raid leader of the top end guild (and former top ranked pvp'er)?

The game has been hinted at by enoyx and other developers that it's endogenously balanced. Horde are about speed and brute force, Alliance about perseverance and sustained assaults.

Having a 'Hero' in Warcraft has always been paramount to the License. (Be it through the overarching plot, or as in Warcraft 3, someone you control).

The developers shouldn't be shocked when players suddenly realize their top accomplishments in WoW will leave them no better than 'Upgraded Peon # 234,679 of the Alliance army).

If they really want to sustain subscriptions, put hero's and siege back on the map. Start writing the groundwork for them to be included in expansion 2.

Focus the second expansion not on moving out the frontier of The Franchise and more on 'becoming the franchise'. Hero's, Personality Quests (Guild Halls, Banks, Guild Transports), A dynamic War zone, and Combined arms (Siege).
When we need more raid content, zone it but if this is to be a team play (aka. raiding) game, that is an expected service from our subscriptions. It would be nice to see blizzard push the envelope into the areas other MMO's currently dominate.

[Etadanik]

I don't understand people's fascination with siege weapons in a game where PvP is fundamentally broken.

I do understand people's fascination with Hero Classes. However, you have to remember that Blizzard's creative drive died when the big bucks hit the table. The drawing board is a great opportunity for fresh new ideas, and Blizzard certainly had some - but once the game's out and a hit, the corporate mentality of "don't shake the boat" takes over. It's just as people say: WoW will innovate again when their subscriber base begins to plummet. Till then, the road is one of glacial indifference sprinkled with occasional kickbacks to the tried-and-true EQ design principles.

[Hal2005]

Originally Posted by Etadanik

I don't understand people's fascination with siege weapons in a game where PvP is fundamentally broken.

I do understand people's fascination with Hero Classes. However, you have to remember that Blizzard's creative drive died when the big bucks hit the table. The drawing board is a great opportunity for fresh new ideas, and Blizzard certainly had some - but once the game's out and a hit, the corporate mentality of "don't shake the boat" takes over. It's just as people say: WoW will innovate again when their subscriber base begins to plummet. Till then, the road is one of glacial indifference sprinkled with occasional kickbacks to the tried-and-true EQ design principles.

Anyone who knows the military strategy in combined arms would realize how much a Siege piece can alter a battlefield.

Example:
Tauren Mill.

10 Horde. 30 guards. 1 Siege unit that can simply provide once every 5 seconds a aerial view of the 10 km perimeter of the mill and lob a shell with a 2 km knockback. 500 damage Fire spell, and a 10 second stun.

You now have a zerg of 20 'after school' caliber Nightelf Hunters and Rogues ganking the crap out of your level 40 Shammy.

Fall back to the mill. The guards (as they rightly should) maintain the brunt of the zerg from fucking you over while your puny 40 (or buddies) lob some shells at them.

Voila. 'Casuals, Under levels.. [insert random pvp victim here]' now has the device to not only repel a superior assault force, but cause them morale failure and a successful routing.

Thus, no more 'his gear..' arguments. And it gives Johnny Ganksquad a serious pause for thought before he dares waste his subscription time attempting to screw over weaklings.

The artillery barrage has, and always will be a classic staple of warfare. Simply for the reason it has a counterbalancing stratagem to most direct assaults.

The added benefit of this addition to warcraft would be that it would root out the 'ragtag ganksquads' that currently populate contested areas (as they'll simply be unable to overwhelm a casual or victim with a random assault).

This, hopefully will lead to the formation of solidified cores of players, and specialized pvp teams. Either for defense, or assault (to prevent the use of said siege engines). For arguments sake, give Defending players XP and honor bonus's, thus giving players incentive to defend their 'territory'. Consider this to be their 'hazard pay'.

The ultimate outcome being the development of a solidified 'passive' army. As what has happened in EVE to a minor degree. Those players who choose to invade will become specialized and regimented. Those who want higher rewards than an assault squad, but are willing to put more of their time into territorial defense will reap a higher 'pay' in game XP or token currencies.

In short, revival of a 'proper' War game.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Except the epic'd out people will be able to survive 10 more rounds then Johnny Casual and you'll hear even -more- bitching.

Other then Paladin bullshit, pvp is fine. It's the ranking system that sucks. I've posted about a dozen times how to easily and amlicably fix it too.

[Etadanik]

Example:
Tauren Mill.

Stop.

Just... Stop.

World PvP? Organized world PvP with worthwhile rewards? Are you fucking kidding me?

The revival of WoW PvP won't come from siege weapons. It won't happen until Blizzard's design of the PvP system (ie farming BGs for honor and rep >>> everything else) is fundamentally changed.

[PatrickStar]

They can't even balance and make existing classes acceptable to a majority of the playerbase you want them to extend to hero classes? Hey I have high expectations but I also have realistic expectations. I'll glady trade hero classes for more content, expansions, etc.

[Cybsled]

The revival of WoW PvP won't come from siege weapons. It won't happen until Blizzard's design of the PvP system (ie farming BGs for honor and rep >>> everything else) is fundamentally changed.

Exactly. Siege weapons have no place in the game until either a) A viable world pvp system is finally implemented b) a battleground is made where siege weapons are a centerpiece to the combat.

Honestly B is the easiest to balance and create, since the siege weapon only has bearing inside the BG.

And while Tseric might come across as double speak, he is correct. Look at the different schools of thought on hero classes. Some people want an actual class. Some people want a "hero" talent tree. Some want some FFXI-styled multi-class system. There are already many different definitions on what could comprise a hero class. Obviously the most popular, and literal, is an actual seperate class. But if, lets say, Bliz decided to do a special talent tree, the vast majority might not consider that a hero class, since you are still playing your normal class with the addition of a few extra abilities. That is what Tseric is elluding to, IMO.

[Lleauaric~EW]

Seige weapons can only work if worked in contrast to real fortifications.
Walls, locked bunkers that provide cover or damage reduction.. ect..

[Ludwigvan]

I don't see Hero classes coming anytime soon mainly because the wow community is fickle. All players like being able to change talent specs all the time. Fuck, they even complain about having to pay to radically alter their character. Adding a permanent choice here would be a nightmare. So many posts about "IF I knew the assassin was going to be BETTER than the Blademaster I wouldn't have chosen Blademaster" would fill the forums. Even more cries to nerf, or buff classes than there already are. Current talent trees allow a degree of flexibility and versatility to a class. Forcing a druid to be moonkin forever would probably cause an account to be cancelled.
Granted, I wish that classed could have a more individual progression. Separate yourself by something other than a talent build that anyone can copy if they feel like it, but that's not appealing to the masses. There are so few permanent choices in World of Warcraft. There is nearly nothing that you are required to accept.
Chose the wrong Bronze Dragonflight ring? Well just wait till exalted and you can switch it. Chose the wrong argent dawn commission (spell power vs. attack power against undead, I forgot the item name) destroy it and ask the NPC for a new one. Hated by a faction? Just grind mobs and it's fixed. Most quest rewards offer a permanent choice, but it doesn't have any gravity as you'll replace most quest rewards with loot drops in raid dungeons.
Now Siege weapons. It's not something that can be tacked on and done well. Anywhere a siege weapon can be used has to be well thought out. Plus how do you implement such a weapon? Make it a trinket? Make it a vehicle? You'd have to make it equal on both sides and not make it overpowered. Class balance is a bitch, and now you have to toss in balance with extra weapons? People already complain about getting steam rolled by people in epics. Siege weapons can't have a large jump in power vs. a regular player. To keep BGs fun you'd probably have to implement a siege minigame similar to the Battle tonks at darkmoon faire. But then you're just playing a war minigame and your class is irrelevant.
Mabye I need to fire up DAoC in order to understand how they accomplish siege warfare.