Attention Span: A Common Misconception?

[Ennya Dragonslayer]

Hmm, where to start. This is addressing he premice not everything that has followed. First, lets clear a few things up:
ADD: in one word, "daydreamer". They are not easily distracted so much as just never giving anything at all attention. Video games do not feed this directy, rather they are just fun and thus when people with ADD play them they are willing to put for the mental effort it takes to keep playing.
ADHD: in one word, "spaz". These are truely short attention span people and are best described as thinking 1000 miles an hour and chifting gears every few seconds. Sadly many dont have the self control to keep from sharing these changing thoughts constantly. Video games really do feed these because they are fed a continuous feed of new information that needs processing. As a result their mind is pushed to shift as fast as it woudl otherwise.
The working theory is that TV in particular and possibly video games can acutlaly manifest this problem in children since they grow accustomed to being spoon fed and when they are in a situation where they have to actually try to entertain themselves they must switch information feeds as often as the TV does.
Please note: ADD and ADHD are totally unrelated conditions that have completely different symptoms and probably conpletely different causes. Brain scans of both have shown that even the physiology between them are competely different. Also, this is a gross oversimplification in any case. Processing disorders are categorized into 17 groups any of which can be ADD or ADHD or can exclusive.

As far as MMOs. I believe the premice is flawed to think that since an MMO is a single thing. Lets build a context around what an ADHD (what you likely meant) kid goes through. Clay is introduced and they play with it. While moulding it a new idea wanders into their head and they begin to sing out loud. A word in the song reminds them of their favorite TV show, so they start spouting lines from the show and laughting. That clay is now in a hundred pieces because they just started mashing it while no tpaying attention. The supervisor (probably a teacher) asks them to please no be so loud, and they immediately respond, "What I didn't say anything."
"You were talking about your favorite TV show, you said ..."
"Yeah, there's no anythign there, see I was right!"
Hopefully you get the idea from the scenerio. (Invented but I've seen 100s like it.)
So, clay is a kenetic exorcise, nothig more. the student gains only tactile input from it and as a result their mins wanders because it's "bored" and wants more to process. It invents stuff to process on it's own and it's even possible that it is partially if not entirely subconsious.

An MMO is Kenetic as well (keyboard/mouse), but also has audio, visual inputs and through some crafty game design, there are measureable goals that can be obtained. Each time a goal is met, a new stimulous begins as the prior one ends. A new mob is attacked, old one dead. New sound when new zone is entered. visual fireworks... all kinds of good stuff to keep a brain at peek processing.

well, that's my $.02 anyhow.

[Zehn - Vhex]

The major barriers to a leveless MMO is the other functions level serve. Primarily social elements. If you see "60 warrior lfg" you can feel fairly confident that he has the right abilities. In a game with no levels, you'd end up more with something like, "Warrior with taunt rank 5, 8,500 ac, 7k hp, 61 dps mainhand, 185 block, sunder rank 4, etc...etc...etc...lfg." You'd have to include a list of accolades into your lfg spam.

The upside to this of course is all those faggot "LOLZ MUST HAVE COMUNITEEE!!!" people would have a joygasm as people with good reputations would have a much easier time finding groups since you don't have to do that whole new person litmus test.

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

The major barriers to a leveless MMO is the other functions level serve. Primarily social elements. If you see "60 warrior lfg" you can feel fairly confident that he has the right abilities. In a game with no levels, you'd end up more with something like, "Warrior with taunt rank 5, 8,500 ac, 7k hp, 61 dps mainhand, 185 block, sunder rank 4, etc...etc...etc...lfg." You'd have to include a list of accolades into your lfg spam..

Eh, that's somewhat circular...

This is only a problem because

- The world you are thinking about is designed around "levels,"
- The "warrior has to tank for the group to accomplish anything" model
- Everyone has to pull their weight or xp will suck.
- Designing an advanced LFG tool that could gauge party/person effectiveness is beyond the capabilities of MMO designers in 2006/2007

[Ennya Dragonslayer]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

- Designing an advanced LFG tool that could gauge party/person effectiveness is beyond the capabilities of MMO designers in 2006/2007

Only because the programmers and designers the companies hire are not the right people. If you want a program, hire a programmer. If you want well engineered software, hire an Engineer. (For those who havn't connected the implied statement: Most programmers are not engineers and do a shitty job when they try. Lemma: Most people called "Software Engineers" are really only programmers.)

[Vorph]

Originally Posted by Ennya Dragonslayer

Only because the programmers and designers the companies hire are not the right people. If you want a program, hire a programmer. If you want well engineered software, hire an Engineer. (For those who havn't connected the implied statement: Most programmers are not engineers and do a shitty job when they try. Lemma: Most people called "Software Engineers" are really only programmers.)

Most? There is no such thing as a Software Engineer, period. Sciences don't have PE exams and programmers aren't licensed, so we aren't engineers. I don't particularily care for the title and have requested it changed at a job before, and actual engineers I know really hate the title (along with the 'network engineer' version which is even more of a slap in the face to them).

I think what you're saying is that most programmers just know the language(s), and not the methodologies that should be used to design the software in the first place... in which case I'd agree. As it applies to the LFG tool that Lyenae mentioned, the difficult part would be making it work well enough that people don't bitch endlessly about how soandso's group picked someone else over them because the LFG tool told them to. Given the retardation on mmo forums, and how people just plain love to bitch about anything, I'm sure it's a no-brainer decision to keep the tools simple enough that when someone doesn't get chosen for a group the blame rests on another player and not the company.

[Ennya Dragonslayer]

Originally Posted by Vorph

Most? There is no such thing as a Software Engineer, period. Sciences don't have PE exams and programmers aren't licensed, so we aren't engineers. I don't particularily care for the title and have requested it changed at a job before, and actual engineers I know really hate the title (along with the 'network engineer' version which is even more of a slap in the face to them).

I wasn't using the PE as a basis for the title since, as you said, it's not available for Engineers based in Software. I will use, however, a degree based on engineering as opposed to liberal arts, math, or straight up computer science. One that carries accreditation from ABET, for example, which give accreditation for engineering colleges and programs. Based on that criteria there are indeed a few programs that study both the archetecture and archetectural process of engineering a software system, much in the same way that a MechE or CivE has to when they are designing.

Originally Posted by Vorph

I think what you're saying is that most programmers just know the language(s), and not the methodologies that should be used to design the software in the first place... in which case I'd agree. As it applies to the LFG tool that Lyenae mentioned, the difficult part would be making it work well enough that people don't bitch endlessly about how soandso's group picked someone else over them because the LFG tool told them to. Given the retardation on mmo forums, and how people just plain love to bitch about anything, I'm sure it's a no-brainer decision to keep the tools simple enough that when someone doesn't get chosen for a group the blame rests on another player and not the company.

Agreed, there is no accounting for the IQ loss of posting on a forum. And from he perspective of what is available, there are decent LFG tools out there, but none that would be better than an average grade at best. That doesn't, however, mean no one could as I believe they can. And in some cases, that "decent" tool is 100x better than the available tool from the MMO devs. For example, CallToArms is missing a lot of useful functionality, however, it's by far better than "/join LookingForGroup" or the meeting stones. Those are just lame.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Ennya Dragonslayer

Hmm, where to start. This is addressing he premice not everything that has followed. First, lets clear a few things up:
ADD: in one word, "daydreamer". They are not easily distracted so much as just never giving anything at all attention. Video games do not feed this directy, rather they are just fun and thus when people with ADD play them they are willing to put for the mental effort it takes to keep playing.
ADHD: in one word, "spaz". These are truely short attention span people and are best described as thinking 1000 miles an hour and chifting gears every few seconds. Sadly many dont have the self control to keep from sharing these changing thoughts constantly. Video games really do feed these because they are fed a continuous feed of new information that needs processing. As a result their mind is pushed to shift as fast as it woudl otherwise.

Now in handy pictoral format...for anime fans, at least.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by WillTR

I think he's merely suggesting that with a game costing twice to three times the fee per month, they can focus on a specific crowd of gamers who are

Considering the sheer amount of profit brought in qith a quality game at $14.99 a month, there is no reason why most companies do not have the funding for quality development.

I think if we saw $49.99 a month, it wouldn't change a thing - except make publishers even more lazy if people kept paying.

What they need to do is stop releasing such shit titles into the market because of the live patching process.

[ElGallo]

Originally Posted by Etadanik

Not sure who you're responding to, but my argument is the opposite: that game companies are dumbing down their content to target the *older* audience, who have shorter attention spans.

I think they are trying to appeal to a broader audience, not an older or younger one. The only people EQ1 appealed to were (a) the borderline retarded and (b) people so desperate for a fantasy MMO that they were willing to debase themselves to the level of a borderline retard just to play one. Staring at one spot for 17 hours waiting for a spawn to pop isn't the sign of a healthy, patient adult attention span. It's a sign that you have a level of tolerance to boredom that only fanatics and retards have.

For your average Vanguard forum poster, the most hardcore MMO player in the history of the universe is that severely autistic guy who stares at one spot, banging his head against the wall all day every day for ten months. That guy is their hero. He's HARDCORE unlike those ADD WoW kiddies.

For the rest of us, we fit under category "b" in EQ. Now that we've seen that you can have a fantasy MMO that does not force us to debase ourselves to the level of a borderline retard just to play the game, we won't go back to one that does.

[Zarcath]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Now in handy pictoral format...for anime fans, at least.

Truth!

[Wizerud]

Originally Posted by ElGallo

The only people EQ1 appealed to were (a) the borderline retarded and (b) people so desperate for a fantasy MMO that they were willing to debase themselves to the level of a borderline retard just to play one.

...or those who found the uniqueness (at the time) of playing in a persistent world with other, real, people enticing. If EQ were a single-player game, how many people would have played it?

[Zarcath]

Originally Posted by Wizerud

...or those who found the uniqueness (at the time) of playing in a persistent world with other, real, people enticing. If EQ were a single-player game, how many people would have played it?

Oblivion?

[Lyenae]

Originally Posted by Zarcath

Oblivion?

Oblivion was a one month wonder.

[Dynalisia]

Originally Posted by Lyenae

Oblivion was a one month wonder.

Shrug, if not Oblivion, he could use Morrowind as an example. It would still be complete bullshit though, as the things that made Morrowind great are almost non-existant in Everquest. Being fair, Morrowind did go gold a good three years after EQ did, but I'm completely with Wizerud here on that EQ's majuor attraction was the MMO aspect of it. The rest of it would be weak at best compared to games at the time that were especially made for single player.

[ElGallo]

Originally Posted by Wizerud

...or those who found the uniqueness (at the time) of playing in a persistent world with other, real, people enticing. If EQ were a single-player game, how many people would have played it?

Yeah, that's "b." Playing a MMO is worth it, even when the only MMO available is a tedious shitfest. Now that we have MMOs that aren't tedious shitfests, we play those instead.