WoW future mudflation compaired to EQ?

[Bizanich]

I'm firmly convinced the only reason Naxxramas loot is so good compared to current loot is because the expansion will make really good loot in the 5 man/10 man/20 mans that revert the loot to the current situation where raiders aren't overpowering "lesser" people.

I'd think they'd have to due to PvP (heh) unless this whole matching BG's by gear works, and we all know it won't.

[Turzem]

I just want some more end game 10 man instances, or maybe a 15 man or two.

[Lefazz]

I don't mind mudflation as long as they keep it so that older content isn't obsolete. What I mean by this is, if a new server were to open up, it would be necessary for a guild to progress through MC before entering BWL, etc. etc.

The problem with EverQuest was that they constantly added mid-range content that made it pointless to go to the older stuff. That is why the old World, Kunark, and Velious zones (and I'm sure many others, I quit after PoP) are ghost towns now. I hope Blizzard voids that -- which I think they are from the fact that they have taken the time to update the older instances like Strat and Scholo with some pretty decent gear. Even ZG got some dang nice upgrades this past patch.

[James]

That doesn't sound like you're comparing T1 to T2, but non raid to T2. Full T1 your warriors should be 6-6.3k hp and 8+k armor. Though 1k hp and 1k armor still isn't a sidegrade IMO.

Aye, it was non-raid warrior. Just saying that mudflation in WoW is happening right now at a rate far greater than FY is giving it credit for. Hell, we're not even taking into account +defense (which a T1 warrior cannot reach 'max' in unless he gimps his hp/ac), or parry, or dodge, or any other tanking stat. We're not even mentioning the gains DPS classes get from non-raid to AQ, what going from a 40ish DPS weapon to a 65 dps weapon and all.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Lefazz

I don't mind mudflation as long as they keep it so that older content isn't obsolete. What I mean by this is, if a new server were to open up, it would be necessary for a guild to progress through MC before entering BWL, etc. etc.

That is happening, but it's happening at a very very fast rate, which imho is/should be an issue.

I started anew on Altar of Storms, a non transfer server that I think is like a month old. Alliance is roaring through PvE (which is why I chose Alliance so I wouldn't fight epic'd out people) and Horde is crawling.

Golemagg is dead already Alliance side, the War Effort has begun and Hakkar is obviously dead.

Horde is in ZG at the moment.

Alliance is 47% of the pop, Horde 53%. Horde is kicking their teeth in, mostly, for PvP except for AV now because the hardcore Horde are already exalted and now the Horde B-team is getting massacred.

I think it's all happening too quickly, but..the progression is definitely there.

I don't understand why some people move to brand new PvP servers to go hardcore PvE, though, besides for e-peen server firsts..:/

[Kasonic]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

I'm firmly convinced the only reason Naxxramas loot is so good compared to current loot is because the expansion will make really good loot in the 5 man/10 man/20 mans that revert the loot to the current situation where raiders aren't overpowering "lesser" people.

I'd think they'd have to due to PvP (heh) unless this whole matching BG's by gear works, and we all know it won't.

Not really. Assuming they structure level 70 5-man loot like level 60(max ilvl of 73), that's still only less than or equal to Tier 2 stuff, while a lot of Tier 3 is around ilvl 88-91.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Kasonic

Not really. Assuming they structure level 70 5-man loot like level 60(max ilvl of 73), that's still only less than or equal to Tier 2 stuff, while a lot of Tier is around ilvl 88-91.

I don't think they will, though. They've been so careful up until now, it just seems out of character to throw it all into an unbalanced EQ-like mess in regards to gear in PvP.

Also, recent interview here.. http://wow.stratics.com/content/Deve...ions/may06.php

Originally Posted by Question #5

With the upcoming addition of the Naxxramas raid instance, it will ultimately introduce a slew of new and powerful items for players to hunt for. How are you developers planning on relieving the disparity between non-raiders, whom can acquire tier 0.5 at best, and raiders, whom will soon have access to tier 3? - Robyn Parrell on the Burning Legion server.

A. Increasing the level cap to 70 inherently narrows the gap between raiders and non-raiders, as it gives non-raiders an opportunity to gain new items with higher levels through quests and instances. In addition, we expect that even more of our end game PvE content in the expansion will be experienced by more players than the current end-game content is.

I know, could be fluff, but it seems they want more people in endgame type gear, so widening the chasm Naxx opened or even leaving it seems at odds with that.

[FulorianC]

This is a ridiculous argument. You keep comparing EQ to WoW without relative times being the same. WoW is 1.5 years, 0 expansions, and 3 tiers of loot old. EQ was almost 5 years old when most of you quit. It just passed its 7th anniversary several months ago.

Lets have a less unbiased comparison here. Lets call Plane of Fear/Hate gear tier1 EQ raid gear. Kunark trash dropping might as well be called tier2. Finally, lets call Plane of Growth / new floor of PoHate tier3. Now admittedly, this was already 2 years and 2 expansions into EQ. It is the closest fair comparison I can make. In those first weeks of Velious, did the entire game suddenly cease playing in Kunark? Were the planes abandoned the moment Kunark released?

Absolutely not.

At the time Velious launched, only a few guilds were in the Plane of Growth. Very few touched Kael because of the factioning involved. At best, three guilds per server was in Growth the first few months. The remainder of the 'raiding' populace (which was small at the time - WoW is further developed for its age than EQ was) was.... in the Plane of Hate and Fear. Working on epics (not purples, for the WoW natives here), and doing smaller Kunark raids such as Prince in Chardok. Plane of Fear was still the portal of doom for MANY a raid even after Velious released. 10 level boost and it was STILL a very dangerous place for a more casual raider. And you're comparing this to WoW, which has not yet had its level raise yet?

I guarantee you, once WoW reaches the age of EQ at the time of your complaints, it will have mudflated to the point that Molten Core will be useless.

[Kasonic]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

I know, could be fluff, but it seems they want more people in endgame type gear, so widening the chasm Naxx opened or even leaving it seems at odds with that.

That's possible but that statement is kind of odd.

It seems like a lot of people are basing the comparisions on Naxx vs. level 70 5-mans. Everyone seems to forget there will be raid loot in BC too, which can only progress from Naxx loot.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Kasonic

That's possible but that statement is kind of odd.

It seems like a lot of people are basing the comparisions on Naxx vs. level 70 5-mans. Everyone seems to forget there will be raid loot in BC too, which can only progress from Naxx loot.

I guess the real question is how many 10/20 man raids will be ingame versus the new 40's.

They might be compromising and going that way instead of 5 mans that drop the loot of the gods.

[Wizerud]

It seems like mudflation is a given. It's gonna happen at some rate whichever way you look at it. One way to reduce its speed would be to make characters weaker as they get "older".

Introduce character aging. Your character starts at age 18. Let's say 1 month real time = +1 year for your character (adjust as necessary). As your character gets older perhaps he would ramp up in power so that at age 25-45 a lot of his stats (hp, ac, str, dex, agi) would be at their peak. Then his skills, or some of them, would slowly start dwindling. This way, even though he might be able to acquire better gear as he levels up what he's really doing is battling aging through gear. Make gear age or level restrictive so it cannot be handed off to some level 1, 18 year old character to prevent twinking.

O' course you could build lots of other things into aging such as your characters actually looking older which although I've heard about in other MMO's I've never actually seen it in action. Maybe some of his skills (wisdom, intelligence) could increase or he could get extra skills or disciplines as he gets older to partially counteract the regular loss of hp, strength etc. Perhaps you could have temporary or permanent effects that reduced or even increased aging (if you were going after that age 50 restricted 2hander and you were 49 yrs old).

Yeah I know the thought of your character getting worse in some aspects the more time you put into it can be seen as off-putting. But let's just try to apply the above scenario to EQ. A character created in March 1999 would now be 105 years old. If he had the same gear as he did 5 years ago when he was still in his peak age he might only have 40% of the physical stats (hp, ac, str etc) he had when he was 30 years old. But the better gear he's acquired since then has counteracted some of the aging effects. Then again, how realistic is it nowadays to expect to create any character that is created NOW to still be played in seven years time. Maybe 1 RL month to 1 game year is too slow, I dunno. Maybe your character could even die but when he does he can bestow certain affects onto his heir.

This system might also have the possible advantage of not having to increase mob power so much through expansions too. I haven't really though about this that much.

I'm not sure whether this could even be feasible to introduce into any game currently out there, probably not, but I just thought I'd throw it out there for your ripping pleasure.

[Brodda Thep]

Except one real day is worth one real day in WoW. It isn't like the accelerated time in other games.

Aging is akin to permanent death. ie it isn't going to happen.

[Szlia]

You could make a MMORPG where power is purely socially based, but then it removes one of the key elements that make current MMORPG addictive: the constant upgrades in character power. You log on, buy some stuff, kill some monsters, complete some quests and then log out and you are more powerfull.

Not to hijack, but one of the issue of the durability system is the symbolic fact that it messes with this fundamental paradigm.

[frott]

Originally Posted by Camerous

And he was so in shock he sent it to me. I looked at it and I could not believe my eyes... a Bastard Lunatic with over 22261 CON and 57438 HP Max... +67 Heavy Stabbity Longiron...

!

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by FulorianC

This is a ridiculous argument. You keep comparing EQ to WoW without relative times being the same. WoW is 1.5 years, 0 expansions, and 3 tiers of loot old. EQ was almost 5 years old when most of you quit. It just passed its 7th anniversary several months ago.

So everyone should remember one simple analogy:

Nag/Vox --> Fear/Hate ----> Sky ---> Kunark
MC ----> BWL/AQ40 --> Naxx ---> Burning Crusade

Consider these progression paths and re-evaluate your mudflation comparisons. In case people forget, Kunark was the single worst case of mudflation the mmog world has ever seen.

WoW has done a much better job of making logical and noticeable improvements in loot acquisition (pre-expansion) than EQ. More importantly,the mudflation that will inevitably result from the expansion will not be nearly as severe as it was with Kunark. That is the blessing of hindsight.

The worst problem with EQ was the lack of loot options. Until the class sets were available from Fear (and eventually Hate) people had gear from dungeons that were 10 or 15 levels below them because there just weren't options. So when Kunark came out with all it's amazing upgrades, suddenly *everyone* was replacing *everything* with less effort. That made the mudflation much more noticeable.