Vanguard: Making the game as they go?

[Agraza]

At least you're contributing something.

[Punko]

Originally Posted by Vorph

Word is, a lot more people are logging in since Necro was put in. The question -- is it because of the novelty, or is it because it's a class that excels at soloing compared to the rest?

If it is because of the novelty, that will wear of quickly. If it is because the class excels at soloing, that will be nerfed under the whines of the other classes which must suck ass by comparison.
Either way, that doesn't inspire me with hope.

[Roxy]

I think its a good idea to ask people to send in their ideas for quests, however asking them to create the game structure of the lower levels is not that great. If the game isnt ready at the end of this year they should definately not release it, you could do that 5 years ago but with WoW owning up the market, the fans expect more.

I like that the developers take the time to post here though.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by Vorph

Word is, a lot more people are logging in since Necro was put in. The question -- is it because of the novelty, or is it because it's a class that excels at soloing compared to the rest?

I would imagine people are drawn back to playing by the novelty of the Necro class, and then realises all the polish that must have happened, as well as better performance, or fixes to whatever stopped them playing the first time.

[Deris]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

This is an unfair statement by you.
WOW shipped with massive part of its world unfinished. Silithus, Hyjal, parts of various zones, unfinished dungeon areas. Id estimate a good 5% (prolly alot more, but Im being conservative) had nothing, some of it still has nothing.
That doesnt mean that the game was unfinished when it shipped. It just means they felt the game was ready to ship without filling every square inch of the landscape.

To further drive this point :

I would prefer that future expansions don't just use the "OMFG ROFL WE CNA GO TO THE MOON NOW" excuse for new content. Instead - we have new areas in old places, and really makes us feel like we're discovering new poop. I mean even after TBC - we still have Hyjal, Gilneas, Kirin-Tor, oceans, crazy tombs in weird places with no seeming use, etc - tons more to expound upon.

An expansion shouldn't comprise of only an entirely seperate geographical entity - it should also expand the existing world. I remember in EQ, I never once went to the old world once PoP came out - not for a single thing. they could have removed everything in EQ Except for the Bazaar, and all the Planes, and I would have been just fine with that. Designers need to take heed, and realize that it sucked balls. Give us reasons to go back to old zones, reasons that don't suck.

Changing old content > adding new content. I'd love to see WPL "turn back" the scourge, and see the Scarlet homos expand, and maybe reinforce Hearthglen (omg outdoor raid instancewtf?), and begin to rebuild Andorhol. No one is gonna miss that shit anyways >. Little changes like this make the world feel like "Its alive" and changing, instead of 2 years later... Yep still killing undead guys in WPL at the Cauldrons.......

Maybe have the Gnomes begin reclaiming Gnomeregan! something ffs!! . And do it frequently.


Other than that, Utnayan is good comedic relief.

[Samus Aran]

Necros, after all the nerfs got settled, were a really fun class to play. I played a bard as my main, but my necro alt was so fun to play for a lot of the same reason -- diversity. You really can do a lot as a necro and you're useful in a group or solo so that's really helpful.

EDIT: Nm, thought I was reading the progression thread for a moment, Haha...

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Faille

I would imagine people are drawn back to playing by the novelty of the Necro class, and then realises all the polish that must have happened, as well as better performance, or fixes to whatever stopped them playing the first time.

Possibly. But if basic elements of the games design (like the newbie experience), are still found to be "less than fun", it won't help much. I'd imagine theres been a lot of scrambling to brush up different aspects of the game. But from the sounds of it, the newbie game needs a total overhaul. So I doubt much has changed in that department since all this came to pass.

Either way, I hope they're taking at least some of the "more consistant" feedback seriously.

[Gnome Eater]

Jesus, you cannot have things both ways:

If Sigil lets people speak their mind on topics on their private boards, they are screwing up because whiners and loudmouthed retards are drowning things and making the signal to noise ratio impossible.

if Sigil ignores suggestion from people, it is Brad being stubborn to his vision and he doesn't understand what things are like.

If they query players to hear their opinion without having to listen to retards, then they don't know how to design games.

You do realize you in turn criticized every single thing they did, and when they changed it, you criticized what they changed too?

Listening to player feedback is excellent, you can have as clear a vision as you'd like, but true wisdom is being able to listen to intelligent people who give you intelligent suggestion, and not everyone has the luxury of having access to the batphone to give direct feedback to people who will listen, so they implemented those questionaires, which in my opinion is an excellent step, since it will allow them to ignore everyone who says 'go back to WoW noob'.

I don't know if Vanguard will be my type of game yet. I won't play a game where you cannot meaningfully advance without solo, flat out. I won't pretend as though my opinion on what I find fun is the holy grail, or that somehow I represent a lot of people. The best way is to express your opinions in an intelligent NON BELLIGERANT way and they will get noticed; if the devs however decide that they'd rather make a game targetted at a demographic different from the one you belong too, vote with your 10bux and don't play the game.

Since Vanguard started a lot of things (namely, WoW) came into existence which caused developers to totally re-evaulate what used to be sacred cows of MMORPG design. I personally really enjoy most of WoW, the one thing I somewhat miss were the more powerful tools that EQ gave at characters disposal, and WoW pvp is far too meaningless for me to enjoy. Most people however on VG boards have this retarded elitism that makes them believe that somehow they are more mature and better than anyone who touches WoW, which leads them to bash absolutely anything associated with it.

I am extremly pleased with this latest move for one, as it allows people who didn't used to have a direct batphone a way to express their opinions intelligently without being drowned out by fanboys who somehow want to play a masochistic game so they can appease themselves. The most vocal minority on Sigil boards is a less eloquent version of Utnayan who bashes WoW instead of Vanguard.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

This is an unfair statement by you.
WOW shipped with massive part of its world unfinished. Silithus, Hyjal, parts of various zones, unfinished dungeon areas. Id estimate a good 5% (prolly alot more, but Im being conservative) had nothing, some of it still has nothing.
That doesnt mean that the game was unfinished when it shipped. It just means they felt the game was ready to ship without filling every square inch of the landscape.

There's a difference between Devs saying "This part of the world isn't in game yet. We have plans for it, but not quite yet" and Devs saying "Raid new Plane of Uberloot!" and said Plane being inaccessable due to a cockblock because it's not actually finished yet.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

WOW shipped with massive part of its world unfinished. Silithus, Hyjal, parts of various zones, unfinished dungeon areas.

And so?

That's not the point.

What can be worriesome is how much time you need to move from point A -> to point B to reach the content.

In WoW those zones are inaccessible, hidden to normal players. In Vanguard the fear is that the content will be spread thin on a huge, featureless continent.

Some trees, some grass, some hills. And nothing on the horizon.

Remember SWG?

[Abalieno]

Btw, I'll also add that it's a bad design practice to plan the container before the content.

Things should always start small and then open up when needed, instead of planning large expanses of nothing before you have an idea of how they fit in the game and what they should bring to it.

This reminds me Dark & Light.

And it also sounds like if we could kiss goodbye to the "zone design". How the hell can you shape the terrain, connect the places and all the rest if you don't know what is going to be within?

[Lenaldo]

I am getting sick of these threads. Ut, none of us GIVE A SHIT IF YOU TELL US A GAME SUCKS OR NOT. Guess what, I just turned 10 years old so now I feel like its my right to make my own decisions now! That means stop trying to tell me what I am suppose to feel about a game and fucking shut your mouth. The first few times you posted I wasn't so apprehensive towards you because people SHOULD post their opinions here on the board. However, it has become quite lucid that all you care about is being a martye and "destorying the illusion that is Vanguard" now, and that shit is lame.

Heres the deal. I havn't played Vanguard, but I am still excited for it. The point is, you have made your point - more than you probably should have - you arn't going to change anyone's opinion at this point so why annoy us with your constant bitching.


What Vanguard is doing is fine with me. THe best thing WoW did for the MMORPG market is show developers that games need to be released finished. Sure, WoW still had its bugs and not much high-end content, but 99.9% of the game was flawless. That needs to be the norm instead of the exception and I think thats what Sigil is trying to do. Look at shadowbane, still probably the best group-pvp game since UO/DaoC yet the release was so bad that it literally killed the game.

I would much rather Vanguard fail for its inheritant flaws than for a bad release. It would be nice of the next-gen mmorpgs all game out "complete" instead of this half-ass shit we have had since UO.

[Papillon]

Originally Posted by Vorph

Word is, a lot more people are logging in since Necro was put in. The question -- is it because of the novelty, or is it because it's a class that excels at soloing compared to the rest?

In Vanguard you have to put a lot of work into your character-growth. That's how it was always planed and just as I like it personaly.

However, even I for myself don't have fun with leveling a character for months just to get it wiped and start all over again.

But when you see a new class in the game, it's always fun to try something new and you could level it a bit in a short amount of time. So that's fun and you don't lose much when all chars are wiped after beta.

I'm pretty sure many beta testers that aren't playing today just wait for release to start the game "when it realy counts".

[Cybsled]

Btw, I'll also add that it's a bad design practice to plan the container before the content

There's nothing wrong with making the container first, so long as you have a clear vision for the content. For instance, Blizzard had lots of zone files, artwise, ready to go...all they needed were NPCs, quests, scripts, etc. However, the zone was designed with a specific vision or focus. They already had a roadmap with the general idea of what went where. The container was designed with the knowledge of what would roughly go in it, so there is very little waste.

Games like SWG and, I can assume, VG, are like those packaged items on the wall that have about 2 pounds of plastic encasing a 1oz product. You have a large world, but on closer examination you begin to wonder where the packaging ends and where the things you actually came for begin. It's ok for a gameworld to have fluff, but the consumer should never feel like they're getting more fluff then product.

[ilian]

As I game developer myself, I have to say I have actually sent off one of these emails to a messegeboard fan myself. Now, I have no idea why the Vanguard Dev did it, but here is why I did it:

Part of it, was just sort of a "You think its so easy, you try it smartass" kind of kneejerk to people giving a lot of smartass critisizms about the game. All the detailed questions were sent to give them an idea of all the different factors a designer has to consider and to show them its perhaps a lot more to think about than they realize
Part of it also is a lot of harcore players in the beta stage ARE armchair designers. Hell, send them a design questionairre since they post so much about it on your forums anwyays, channel that shit into something productive, and find out from your most hardcore fanbase what they think they want. Most likely it wont be very good from a design perspective (hey they arnt pro designers), but you get a good insight into your hardcore fans, and what they think they want in your game. then you can figure out how to better satisfy them.
Also, hell, a longshot maybe there is someone out there with genuine design skills and you can involve them in a more official status in the game.

So I personally wouldnt neccesarily take this questionarre as a bad sign. Just because they are asking these questions, doesnt mean they actually *need* anyone to answer them or are goign to use those answers straight up. Think of it more like super focused market research, but from the tone of the OP, Im thinking its also a lot of "try it for yourself if you think its so easy smartass".


Yeah I might ask my fans "how should we design the low level combat", that doesnt mean Im goign to fucking listen to what they say word for word and do it that way. I just want to know sometimes, what WOULD they say? Is there some part of their fantasy we are totally missing the mark on? Are they specifically asking us NOT to do exactly what we ARE doing?