Vanguard: Making the game as they go?

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by Ravvenn

I could just as easily rip on Vanguard because they wouldn't give me Beta (not that I am bitter or anything....assholes).

For some reason, I actually spent a few minutes wondering why this happened.

Do you think it is because FoH was traditionally a "hard core" guild and fell outside the mythical "core gamer" audience? (wherefore art thou, core gamer?)

Or do you think it had more to do with several members strongly disagreeing with Brad on some of his design philosophies over the past couple of years?

If there is one thing in my old age that I do remember it is that Brad received a lot of really good gameplay feedback during EQ's heyday. With the release of each expansion through Luclin, there was a great deal of communication between top-end guilds (not just FoH) and Brad via email and IRC talking about content, balance, progression, class interests, etc.

What happened?

[Azeth]

this thread needs rickshaw - its the same garbage over and over about Vanguard (which btw isnt even done yet and therefore shouldnt be discussed positively or negatively, but impartially). Because no matter what it's like at the moment, it will be different come release

[Ravvenn]

Originally Posted by Soygen

*hands Melia an axe*

Thanks, God forbid someone respond to me other than bitching at me. I will sit here and await 'The Word'.

The thing here everyone fails to see is that I do not follow this game, I also do not follow EQII. I honestly do not have the time for it or I would, ok well I tried EQII and I was annoyed by the pirate on the starting boat and never played again, but whatever. I don't mean to offend anyone here, and I am sorry if I have.

My point is, I ask you to respect the NDA because I do not know what is in it. I do not know if you are posting information that was provided on the official site or if you are posting leaked Beta Inf0z. I am trying to be nice here and ask that you at least do this much for me because until I get cut a paycheck, I am not going any legwork to 'investigate' what is legit and what isn't.

You can report a post for breaking the NDA but you can't expect me to do anything about a post that did not break the NDA and your only issue was that you think the original poster is a dick.

In the end, you are all going to nip yourselves in the ass because I am fed up with the Vanguard drama. I have both teams working against me here and I am not a referee. I will do what I think is right and fair for our posters, members and readers.

What does that mean? Well if I see someone broke the NDA posting a nice screenshot and praises, I will let it be. If I see someone broke the NDA and posted a screenshot with flames that ended up getting reported, I will delete them both. Oh my gosh! Why? Well because that is what is fair. Ut could make a post about someone in Beta saying negative things and someone else could be in Beta, then reply and correct what Ut said, in the end; both people who leaked the Beta information broke the NDA - not just the one talking smack.

I hope this is now clear to everyone; the fanboys, the flamers, the readers, and even the developers. I am trying to be as fair as I can here, but these threads are all very close to being deleted or moved to a very, very special place.

[Ravvenn]

Originally Posted by Esmo

"Stuff"

What happened?

What happened was you took a silly comment way out of context.

I am only responding to this before some crack-ass conspiracy fires up.

I am pretty sure my not being in Beta has something to do with July 4th, corn cobs, Jack Daniels, Sylvos and grilled steak. I am not positive, but I have a 'feeling'.

[Zorlac]

Originally Posted by Azeth

about Vanguard (which btw isnt even done yet and therefore shouldnt be discussed positively or negatively, but impartially). Because no matter what it's like at the moment, it will be different come release

I remember how people where bitching left and right about WoW servers not being able to handle the load, and WoWfanbois shot that down as "It's just beta!" or "It will be fixed live".

Almost two years later, servers have still have queues, lag and whatnot.

I don't think many people realize that for gigantic projects like MMOGs you can't make major changes to some core systems (combat, magic, graphics engine and the like) after a certain point in development. If core systems are changed late in beta, it will fubar launch with bugs if it's not delayed OR it will delay launch because a lot of stuff needs to be re-tested and balanced.

Not saying that Vanguard is at this point of no return, but it's very shortsighted to say that something that is fubar in beta won't make it live because the devs/designers will fix/change it. Plenty of other companies proved the exact opposite. Some stuff broken in beta will be broken in final.

I also don't understand this "impartial" discussion about features of Vanguard. To me that's nothing more than a spec of combat mechanics. Beta is for pointing out flaws, the negative things, in the design, code, infrastructure, whatnot. Why have beta if all we do is detail the spec of a system? Beta should say: this combat mechanics system sucks ass. This graphics engine sucks ass. This server performance sucks ass.

[masteen]

Originally Posted by Ravvenn

... corn cobs, Jack Daniels, Sylvos...

I shudder to think what you had to witness there. Keep that boy away from liquor and phallic objects...

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by Ravvenn

polite stuff

Gotcha, sorry to add fuel to any conspiracy Fires.

[Tancred]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Very awesome.

Now lets talk about the terrible combat mechanics that are going to need to be altered. I quoted a very detailed PM regarding whack a mole combat that is now in the game. I think it needs to be re-read by some people.

For the record: I am going to be keeping it civil, and that means no personal attacks. I am guessing that goes for my fans too on me. Make counter points to my points, or simply do not reply.



Pretty much sums it up perfectly.

That's one gripe about a system that sounds a lot like WoWs. How is waiting for an icon to light up any different for waiting for your Overpower icon to light up?
The rest of it sounds like someone complaining about obviously unfinished stuff.

You're going to need to do much better to convince anyone VG is the second antichrist.

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by masteen

I shudder to think what you had to witness there. Keep that boy away from liquor and phallic objects...

Especially buttered ones?

(so sorry for the imagery, must go now...)

[Azeth]

Originally Posted by Zorlac

I also don't understand this "impartial" discussion about features of Vanguard. To me that's nothing more than a spec of combat mechanics. Beta is for pointing out flaws, the negative things, in the design, code, infrastructure, whatnot. Why have beta if all we do is detail the spec of a system? Beta should say: this combat mechanics system sucks ass. This graphics engine sucks ass. This server performance sucks ass.

I concede. Negative aspects of the beta should be pointed out, but two things need to happen -

1. if you hate Sigil/Brad or are jaded from EQ or are just looking for a fight, do us all a favor and don't post when people bring up Vanguard.

2. WoW and Vanguard are polar opposites, and no one cares which you are going to play

[Stragi]

Originally Posted by Ravvenn

white hand with a better manicure.

this is a lie and you know it

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Tancred

That's one gripe about a system that sounds a lot like WoWs. How is waiting for an icon to light up any different for waiting for your Overpower icon to light up?

I think it goes beyond that. With EQ, you could see that a caster was casting something and to do that you would have to watch a graphic, listen for a sound (If possible with all the commotion) or watch for a spell text to some through in case there was too much going on the screen. In WoW, you have to pay careful attention to the mob bosses (depending on which ones you are fighting) and look for sings that changes in behavior are happening.

In Vanguard, you don't. This quote is what I am talking about, and it is different than waiting for a dodge on an overpower.

In Vanguard this is automated for you. If you make your "perception check" your counterspell icon lights up for you to click. The end result is you stare at your icons the whole fight waiting for them to light up, or the refresh timers to complete, instead of actually looking at the mobs. This is why everyone calls it whack-a-mole combat. You know how healers complained about staring at health bars the whole game in EQ? Vanguard has brought that gameplay paradigm to all classes

Basically the designers are taking the eyes off the actual world and having them stare at icons. Bad move in my opinion. And this is part of the reason why I think people find combat so boring in the game. It is my opinion that you need to place the player's view on the game itself, not on icons. You need to give players something to watch in the world to make combat more immersive. Again, not icons. You need to have players watch for spell effects, movement clues, smoke trails, changes in the environment, additional mobs... anything... but... icons.

Overpower in WoW is different. That is an ability that is activated with enough rage on a successful dodge. That is different than watching for mob boss behavior on your icon panel. There is also a lot more to look at when in combat in WoW, especially on boss fights.

[teneran]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Basically the designers are taking the eyes off the actual world and having them stare at icons. Bad move in my opinion. And this is part of the reason why I think people find combat so boring in the game. It is my opinion that you need to place the player's view on the game itself, not on icons. You need to give players something to watch in the world to make combat more immersive. Again, not icons. You need to have players watch for spell effects, movement clues, smoke trails, changes in the environment, additional mobs... anything... but... icons.

Overpower in WoW is different. That is an ability that is activated with enough rage on a successful dodge. That is different than watching for mob boss behavior on your icon panel. There is also a lot more to look at when in combat in WoW, especially on boss fights.

From my WoW experiences on a warrior, the difference is very minor, very, very minor. I spent a lot of time tanking watching for ability icons like revenge, etc. to light up so i could hit them. I'm not in VG beta so I cannot comment of the differences firsthand, but the descriptions I'm reading don't make VG sound much more "whack-a-mole" than WoW. And for the record, I'm not a fan of combat in WoW for this very reason, way too much botton mashing.

I do agree with you 100% that whatever clues a player might get during combat should be "immersive", and you list some good examples. Sounds, mob animations, and the like are the way to go. Its immersive, and rewards the player paying attention .... "hit counterspell now" icon approach seems way too non-immersive and dumbed down, IMO.

[Xhar]

Ut, last I heard on the subject from a dev was this:

The way that counter spells are /supposed/ to work is this -

1. You perceive the incoming spell (successful perception check) and are notified in both the counter reaction window and with the icon flashing that you can counter.

2. You simply see the spell cast. You can attempt to counter by simply activating the counter spell.

The HUGE benefit to scenario 1 is that if you perceive the spell and activate the counter spell you do not pay the refresh time of the counter spell. This means that the skilled player can rapidly counter over and over again.

So I don't think they are moving to a "watch the icon" system entirely, and I'm sure that it is still being worked on heavily in beta (we've seen other big changes regarding how spells/abilities are used already a few times).

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by teneran

From my WoW experiences on a warrior, the difference is very minor, very, very minor. I spent a lot of time tanking watching for ability icons like revenge, etc. to light up so i could hit them. I'm not in VG beta so I cannot comment of the differences firsthand, but the descriptions I'm reading don't make VG sound much more "whack-a-mole" than WoW. And for the record, I'm not a fan of combat in WoW for this very reason, way too much botton mashing.

I do agree with you 100% that whatever clues a player might get during combat should be "immersive", and you list some good examples. Sounds, mob animations, and the like are the way to go. Its immersive, and rewards the player paying attention .... "hit counterspell now" icon approach seems way too non-immersive and dumbed down, IMO.

Not trying to say this is neither here or there, but for some reason I spent a lot more time being able to watch the world and creatures as much as I knew where my icons were at and which opportunities were ready to go. I know what you are saying though. If anything, we both agree that taking a player's attention from icons is what should be done. If they can create an action via mob behavior that would let a player know a dodge happened, even regular abilities besides counter spelling would be more fun.

I just remember that when it came time to bash a mob in EQ to stun the NPC caster, I wasn't waiting for my bash key to light up. I was looking for the behavior patterns in the NPC AI, and then hitting bash to attempt a stun when I saw the appropriate behavior.

That type of combat was much more immersive, and in any game, it needs to make a comeback.