Vanguard: Making the game as they go?

[slitz]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

How do you see not getting the monster you want to kill and getting ran over by another group, a plus? Because it adds competition?

Missunderstanding here, I obviously see it as a plus that you dont have to fight over mobs with other groups.

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Problem is, how many people are actually going into those areas? In your opinion, what is your favorite dungeon in EQ2, and is it instanced? What is your favorite storyline in EQ2 and is it instanced? Do you feel like you are making an impact on a non instanced dungeon?

These parts are pretty popular, the only problem is getting access to them which shouldn't be a problem after next live update.
My favorite is Ruins of Varsoon for sure, and it's not instanciated.

I will be the first one to come in here and tell you I am all for non instanced content when the following can occur:

1> There is enough content designed in manners that will allow players to have something to do anytime they want without having to wait in line.

2> There are dynamic impacts that can be made and players can leave a mark on the world. Right now the only way to give the player that impression is to instance it and script it. The best example I can think of was the Coldain Ring Quest in EQ. That is the perfect way to handle it. Alternate zone files. But take it a step further and create alternate zone trees - which can be used to continually develop a world on the fly for that particular zone given player impacts.

But the problem is, no one wants to put the money and effort into that.

Well I don't think anyone but EQ actually accomplished this however. I never felt like I made a difference in WoW. Sure I felt the drill when we killed Nefarian, but I couldn't care less about the storyline there.
If I want a immersive storyline, I rather play singleplayer games since there aren't many MMORPGs that can actually get my attention on their story like a singleplayer game can.
If someone do it though, I doubt it matters if it's instanciated or not.

[Morphyous]

Originally Posted by frott

I remember looking at the WoW leaked alpha where you ran around as a troll in an unpopulated world and thought "Holy God this is going to be great." No spells. No anything except a big, seamless world. Frankly, if that sort of thing isn't clicking by this phase of dev with a game it is pretty obvious where it is headed.

Yeah, but asking your beta testers "What content they want?" That screams to me that they have lost "The Vision" and are going to popular route, to just get subscribers and $$$. Even though WoW wasn't finished, they had sure plans to do what they planned on doing. PvP came late for WoW, but it came. It was not like, "hey beta testers, do you think we should have PvP?"

Bottom line: Forget the fucking guild halls or extravagant shit McQuaid. Stick the core shit that needs to be done. People need to get to 60 (or whatever level you have), they need fun things, dungeons, way to travel, quests, a system of buying and selling, items, and a system of grouping up with people. If leveling is fucking slow and hard, fine, it will buy you time to finish other things. Other than that, you need at least 2-3 high end dungeons to cockblock the high end gamers ala EQ and WoW style. Once you got that shit down you originally planned.

Sounds like EQ and WoW? yeah, basically.

[Algrinon]

Originally Posted by Rayne

Thinking like this has spared me plenty of cash. Personally, I could care less who hates Utnayan or why. Hes stirred up a clusterfuck for Sigil to take into consideration. One that needed to be stirred. Brads done a piss poor job of "managing expectations", its bitten him in the ass, and its coming around for another bite.

It only takes one asshole to shit in the punchbowl to cause mass pandamonium. It's not Brad's job to manage expectations. It is your job to manage your own expectations. If you want to continue to suck Utnayan and Neric's cock, hey, thats your call.

Simply put, everyone on these forums knows Vanguard is still in development and needs a fuckload of work. No one is denying it. It is only the chicken littles of this board who continue to pop off who say the game is all gloom and doom.

I have to take issue with some people who break the NDA saying the game sucks. You don't know the game is going to suck. It may suck now because the animations are stiff or there is flickering, yeah, it may suck now. However, until the game is released you have no fucking clue.

I welcome the problems VG is having. I think SGO will fix it and move on. I am so ready for something besides WoW.

[Cabales]

My biggest concern with Vanguard is non-instanced content and quest driven advancement. I'll admit instancing has it's upsides and downsides. I do miss the communal feel that I would get in a fun dungeon in EQ, but I don't miss sitting in a corner over crawling through the whole dungeon. I miss watching the drama unfold over trainings and camp stealings, or being in a group in Seb and watching a raid come through to take out Trak, but I don't miss not being able to camp a drop I wanted for days or weeks because someone else always got there first. WoW's instances are really well done, and I won't deny that.

I was also very attracted to the quest system of WoW in the beginning, but over time I realized how much I hated it. I think it's the quest sytem, not the instancing, that really hampers the community building in WoW (I know there is community in WoW, but it's not quite as compelling in my mind). If you group up with folks in an outdoor zone in WoW it is usually to complete a specific quest, once that quest is complete everyone says "Thanks GL, bye" There is no grouping in outdoor zones that lasts for an entire play session as you get xp and level together, unless you are grouping with a set group of friends/guildies. While I was levelling up various characters in WoW I was playing with a set group of friends, and the quests made it kind of a pain in the ass. If I levelled without a few of my buddies there was always a feeling of having been left behind. The next night we would help them complete the quests, but we had already done them and everyone knew that our time would have been better spent working on new quests. In EQ we would have just made some extra XP and then poked fun at our absent friends for losing ground, which they would make up at some future date on their own, but when we grouped together everyone would be getting maximum utility out of their time spent that evening regardless of whether or not everyone had caught up yet. This quest driven advancement is a pain in my ass and makes levelling in tandem feel more restricitve than it needs to. I know we could have just abandoned the missed quests and moved on, or we could have ignored quests in the first place and just grinded, but in WoW the entire world is designed around quests and it just doesn't feel right to me to ignore them completely.

The real grouping and socializing happens in the instances in WoW, and those are fun and entertaining, and you do spend hours grouped with the same people, which is nice. However, until you hit 60, you rarely run an instance more than once or twice, and this produces a different feel from hanging out in some of the dungeons in EQ that spanned so many levels. All in all it produces a much looser community than existed in EQ. You miss out on a lot of the server specific drama, which was entertaining as well.

IMO most of the things I would like to change about WoW, and EQ2 also for that matter, could be solved by reducing the reliance on quests for advancement. Give me fewer, but more meaningful, quests and, instead of grouping with 30 different people in a night for 15 minutes each, I'll group with 10 or less for hours on end, and I'll log off with more names from my server that I will remember for a good long time.

Having said all of that, I'm in the VG beta, and have been since early this year. I had a lot of performance issues when I first got in, and so I stopped logging in for a few months. At the time I left I was very concerned about the state of the game, espescially when I was hearing rumors of a July release date. I recently started testing again, and I am very encouraged by improvements that I've seen from both a technical and gameplay perspective. and I'm having fun, not enough to warrant purchasing the game and paying a fee in it's current state(the game is clearly a long way from being finished.), but still fun. However, what bothers me the most is the fact that there is both no instancing, and what seems to be shaping up to a lot of quest driven advancement. I'm optimistic about the game though, but I have reservations about those two issues. Either one could end up being game breaking for me if not done correctly. None of my characters are level 20+ so the quest driven feeling could change, and even though I have not reached level 20 I have still had fun levelling up my most recent characters.

I'd like to point out in closing that I am not against questing in MMO's. I think quests are really important. It's just that after playing WoW I no longer feel like I want to constantly be working on quests 100% of the time.

[Anyen]

Hey Cabales, search the beta boards for information on the advanced encounter system. I think you'll like their ideas on it. The beginning steps of it in if you've ever done a map quest.

[Lyenae]

EQ2 had a good balance of quests and just flat out grinding.

While quests were the fastest way to get through the newbie levels, quests functioned as SUPPORTIVE xp past 20 or so. They gave you nice chunks of extra xp and AA's, significant enough that you should pick them up if you can... but no one would flat out drop an xp group to get better 'quest' xp elsewhere.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Algrinon

I have to take issue with some people who break the NDA saying the game sucks.

No fucktard. You're a fucking conformist. Full of optimism for something thats fucked up beyond your understanding, and you're getting defensive about it because it just won't click in that empty void you call a mind that people are telling you the game isn't any fun. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention? In the span of three weeks, about a dozen "assholes" have "shit in the punchbowl". Perhaps you might try cleaning the shit from your ears, so you can actually hear whats being said. All saying the same fucking thing.

Now flitter on back to daddy Brads little world tinkerbell, where everything is fucking hunkey dorey.

[karisa]

Originally Posted by Deris

Required features beingggg?

If this was any other product being designed it would have all of the features that must be included to make a minimal version of the product. The extra features that would be introduced are features that build polish. If you think of it is as “must have, should have and could have”, all of your “must have” features should have been implemented and tested before beta.

You can always change in-game systems on the fly w- even after release.

You cannnnn, but those systems should be designed, developed and tested continually throughout the production of your game. I mean, you’re making a game, why would you not design the game mechanics first? That’s like designing a car by only focusing on the engine and the suspension. The rest of it has to be designed too …

Sure, re-designs will happen as you discover logic or interaction breakdowns, but expecting massive re-designs late in your production cycle spews of shitty design and shitty engineering.

Optimization has to take place during beta for the most part, because without those the game can be unplayable,

I agree, optimisation in beta is a logical process of working on core features. However, many of those systems can be tested with prototypes that test specific features as the game goes forwards. A great example is the network system a MMO uses; you don’t release a MMO network system and go “man, I wonder if this works”.

Imagine if Blizzard had developed a simple client that mocked being a player client early in WoW’s development, think “SETI at home” but for WoW. Now imagine if they put on their front page “HEY MOTHER FUCKERS!!! The first 10,000 people who download our network tester application gets first dibs on getting into beta!”.

The wouldn’t have been surprised by the network problems that occurred. In fact, they could have worked on solutions well before any of us got into the game.

but design features are completely malleble - nothing is set in stone, and almost always things are changed for the better.

I don’t agree that core game play is something that can just be fucked with at a later date because you’ve neglected to design your game. If this was ANY other designed product in the world, from music to software, and you where just changing shit at the last minute because you considered it malleable real you’d be an idiot.

I’m not arguing that there shouldn’t be any change in a system after the design has been issued, design bibles are bad. I am however arguing that the designs should be there and tested.

[karisa]

Originally Posted by Algrinon

It's not Brad's job to manage expectations. It is your job to manage your own expectations.

If you are making A and your customers think you are making B that’s your fault, not their fault. If that’s your design/engineering/business philosophy, then you suck. Anything else you say is just ignorant, ill-informed bullshit.

[Eomer]

Originally Posted by Esmo

I didn't say it was realistic but it demonstrates (imo) how Sigil has put too much emphasis on technology and not enough on style.

Do you think my system specs are so sub-optimal that I should have to run the game at the lowest settings at release? Despite the age of the system and especially the graphics card, it is still above average. When Vanguard is released (pretend xmas is realistic) I would guess my specs to be in the 50th percentile still - meaning 50% of gamers would have superior machines and 50% lesser. With that logic I *should* be able to run the system at 50% of max settings upon release but I won't even come close to that I assure you. There is absolutely no way Sigil can optimize the graphics engine to improve performance by 50% upon release. Anyone who claims otherwise is utterly ignorant.

You consider 1900x1200 to be an average resolution? Are you out of your mind? If you were running the game at a reasonable resolution for your graphics card, which would be 1280x960, you could run the game at medium to high settings. End of discussion.

If you want to run at a stupidly high resolution, yes, you're going to have to turn detail down. Don't come whining here about it.

Originally Posted by Rayne

Its "expected" to be "fun". If it were, a fuckton more testers would actually be "in game". What will you tell me now? Its beta? Its not "supposed" to be fun?

How about "without all the needless timesinks and tedium"? Tell me. When does that part finally kick in? Rogues stealing glass bits to make poison vials? Kill level 1 shit until you ding 2, then move 50 yards and kill level 2 shit until you ding 3? Move 50 more for the level 3 shit? Spend hours or more, collect a bunch of different shit, to get some piece of shit reward to sell to a vendor, cause the shit you already have is better? Travelling 30 minutes to a dungeon for a group that'll likely break up as soon as a needed class' quest piece drops? Getting dropped like a bad habit by a horde of mobs that "spots" you from 30 meters away? Then get repeatedly gang raped trying to get my corpse back? Wheres the fucking FUN part man?

Instead of asking me "whats missing", you should be telling everyone "whats fun". Because I haven't seen a single fuckin' post come from that beta to convince me that theres ANY to be had. Every post that attempts to refute the negatives is the same old bullshit. "Its beta, you're supposed to be testing, you're not supposed to be having fun".

Bullshit. It isn't about "specific features" missing. Its about telling me, the potential customer, "what the fun and interesting parts are". Whats there to "compel me" to play your game. Don't blow some "core gamer" bullshit up my ass, telling me that if I liked EQ, or some other early games, i'll probably like Vanguard. Give me REAL EXAMPLES of where the fun lies. Instead of that, all I hear is "more on that later", or its "sekret sauce" type stuff. Well fuck that Brad. After 4+ years, the "fun" parts should be speaking VOLUMES about why I should be looking forward to this game.

I'm not going to argue opinions with you. "Fun" is in the eye of the beholder. When Aradune discussed "managing expectations" he was referring specifically to features and things you can do within the game. Again, what specific promised features have been cut from the game?

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by karisa

If you are making A and your customers think you are making B that’s your fault, not their fault. If that’s your design/engineering/business philosophy, then you suck. Anything else you say is just ignorant, ill-informed bullshit.

Exactly. I love shitbags that try and pass off the hype being made and expectations relayed (and then never talked about again) on the consumer - because buyer beware covers that type of mentality. Never blame the person responsible, always blame the victim so it is easy to scapegoat a fanboy.

Peter Molyneux is notorious for this, at least he apologized for it. As it stands right now, this is worse in my opinion. Lay the ground work for a game, hype the shit out of it in beta, here comes beta, it sucks, then be vague in everything when people start asking just what will make the game's release.

That isn't the gamer's fault, and anyone that thinks that can go suck their ass.

[Faille]

I seriously don't get where all the hate is coming from. Lets make a big assumption and say that Ut is correct and that vg is going to suck. So what? I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure life will go on.

I guess I don't understand what motivates all these fanatics to attempt to bring the Truth to the unbelievers, and when looking around the VG offical forums, that applies to both sides. Do these people think they are actually doing anyone a favour with their overzealous, fanatic, repetitive postings of just their own opinions?

[Skars]

Originally Posted by Faille

Hi

QTF, if you ever find out let me know.

[Greyform]

Originally Posted by Faille

I seriously don't get where all the hate is coming from. Lets make a big assumption and say that Ut is correct and that vg is going to suck. So what? I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure life will go on.

I guess I don't understand what motivates all these fanatics to attempt to bring the Truth to the unbelievers, and when looking around the VG offical forums, that applies to both sides. Do these people think they are actually doing anyone a favour with their overzealous, fanatic, repetitive postings of just their own opinions?

QTF

lol I think it is people bored at work who would rather argue about an MMO sucking, then actually working.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Eomer

I'm not going to argue opinions with you. "Fun" is in the eye of the beholder.

So "fun" is subjective now? EQ, WoW, AO, DAoC, Eve, SB, and a zillion other mmo's were "fun". I didn't have to microscopically dissect them to find it. Most of them made it "abundantly clear" what thier features were, how they worked within the setting of the game, and how that translated into fun. Some in such detail, that you could actually "picture" yourself playing them, long before they ever hit a store shelf.

Stop dodging the question man. What, after all this hype, is so fun about Vanguard, that I should pass over EVERYTHING else to play it? Pick a feature. ANY feature, and tell me, IN DETAIL, what makes it fun. Pitch it like you've been trying to sell me on the game yourself for over 4 years.