Moneysinks and WoW design

[mek]

If moneysinks must continually be added patch after patch it's pretty clear that something is very, very wrong.

World of Warcraft's devs clearly subscribe heavily to moneysinking, as this sort of stuff is added to the game like clockwork - Naxx attunement fees and T3 resource requirements are simply icing on the repair bill cake. I'm not here to bitch - the devs add this sort of stuff because they believe it is good; if we want it to go away, let's disprove that assumption.

Note that moneysinks and IGE (and other pro farming outfits) feed off each other. This is also nothing new - as moneysinks are created, demand for gold goes up & supply goes down. More gold is needed by the game... more reason for farmers to get as much of it as they can.


The really big problem is that farmers entirely mitigate whatever moneysinking is added. These outfits hire farmers as the market demands - labour is not a problem. Selling more gold this month? Stick some more hunters in Maraudon! As more moneysinks are added, more gold is farmed to satisfy demand. Therefore, gold moves around more, but all the moneysinks in the world will not reduce the average total gold in circulation - just increase the number of 60 hunters online.

WoW has discovered that over-moneysinking creates a new and entirely different problem, perhaps worse than the problem of inflation. It's a mistake to blame WoW's chinese farmer problem exclusively on its popularity, as it is clear the devs have inadvertently created an MMO where money farming is uniquely profitable.

So where do we go from here? The theoretical goal of moneysinking is to negate the natural excess money earned by player activity, and thus prevent inflation. Moneysinks beyond that point are, WoW has shown us, worse than none at all: they drain player assets, creating demand for professional farming outfits. Now that the demand exists, the only way to fix this new problem is to eliminate moneysinks, allow inflation, and thus make gold farming at its current scale unprofitable. Moneysinks could then be slowly reintroduced until we hit the sweet spot where in=out and then STOP. If gold out > gold in, farming becomes not only profitable but necessary to the game's survival. If IGE & co all disappeared tomorrow, a good deal of the playerbase would literally go bankrupt.

[Dynalisia]

I think the main question should be about what alternatives there are for moneysinks. Any armchair designers got any ideas?

[Man0warr]

Eh that doesn't make sense, you assume everyone buys gold - I don't and never have, neither has anyone in my guild to my knowledge, and we have been able to handle the moneysinks easily. Tier3 might take a week or two of farming for all the materials but so what, nothing wrong with that. And if your bankrupt by 30gold for Naxx atunement maybe you shouldn't be there.

The only thing that would happen if gold farmers were gone tommorow is mana and health pot prices would go back up.

[WarderX]

Countdown till "Blizzard is secretly selling gold" conspiracy theory post

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[Zarcath]

If AH's were similiar to FFXI's in that it showed the last 20 recent sale prices, that might curb inflation.

[theawddone]

Originally Posted by Zarcath

If AH's were similiar to FFXI's in that it showed the last 20 recent sale prices, that might curb inflation.

That'd be an awesome feature

[Manatra]

Originally Posted by Zarcath

If AH's were similiar to FFXI's in that it showed the last 20 recent sale prices, that might curb inflation.

No, no it wouldn't.

[The Black Hand]

Originally Posted by mek

If moneysinks must continually be added patch after patch it's pretty clear that something is very, very wrong.

World of Warcraft's devs clearly subscribe heavily to moneysinking, as this sort of stuff is added to the game like clockwork - Naxx attunement fees and T3 resource requirements are simply icing on the repair bill cake. I'm not here to bitch - the devs add this sort of stuff because they believe it is good; if we want it to go away, let's disprove that assumption.

Note that moneysinks and IGE (and other pro farming outfits) feed off each other. This is also nothing new - as moneysinks are created, demand for gold goes up & supply goes down. More gold is needed by the game... more reason for farmers to get as much of it as they can.


The really big problem is that farmers entirely mitigate whatever moneysinking is added. These outfits hire farmers as the market demands - labour is not a problem. Selling more gold this month? Stick some more hunters in Maraudon! As more moneysinks are added, more gold is farmed to satisfy demand. Therefore, gold moves around more, but all the moneysinks in the world will not reduce the average total gold in circulation - just increase the number of 60 hunters online.

WoW has discovered that over-moneysinking creates a new and entirely different problem, perhaps worse than the problem of inflation. It's a mistake to blame WoW's chinese farmer problem exclusively on its popularity, as it is clear the devs have inadvertently created an MMO where money farming is uniquely profitable.

So where do we go from here? The theoretical goal of moneysinking is to negate the natural excess money earned by player activity, and thus prevent inflation. Moneysinks beyond that point are, WoW has shown us, worse than none at all: they drain player assets, creating demand for professional farming outfits. Now that the demand exists, the only way to fix this new problem is to eliminate moneysinks, allow inflation, and thus make gold farming at its current scale unprofitable. Moneysinks could then be slowly reintroduced until we hit the sweet spot where in=out and then STOP. If gold out > gold in, farming becomes not only profitable but necessary to the game's survival. If IGE & co all disappeared tomorrow, a good deal of the playerbase would literally go bankrupt.

I'm pretty sure you would cry about having to pay 30 silver to accomplish an end game task. This is evident by the inane whining over the ENORMOUS (read: nonexistant) costs for T3 armor. The problem with WoW isn't casuals, it's raiders and their 'we deserve everything at no cost' mentality. Believe me, if you are crying now, other games in the genre are going to be a bitter pill for you to swallow once you pack up your shit and move on.

"But I don't want to log on and do anything but raid..." Yea, ok. How is that Blizzard's problem again?

[Lleauaric~EW]

I think the point that Mek is making is pretty interesting.

I know alot of people who have bought gold. Most of the people who do, do it for practical reasons. Me personally, I bought 1000g for 30 bucks because I didnt feel like farming X number of hours for an epic horse. In that regard I have more disposable income than time, so it made sense to me.

What the concern should be is for raiding guilds. Lets assume that for most guilds, at the moment, 1 hour of raiding = 1g in repairs. That may differ up or down for class/difficulty of raid, but that is probably the mean. What that basically means is that to maintain a steady balance of cash, you are required to cash farm X amount of time to support one night of raiding.
For people with scads of free time, this isnt a problem. Log on early in the afternoon, farm, do some pvp, raid till 2am, sleep. But for many this time requirement becomes constrictive, many of us older players are lucky if we can get on 30 minutes before raid time. As such, many players have noticed their gold supply slowly drain away as they tend to make cash in big lumps, instead of steady daily grind. But for the most part, as the game has settled in, people have found a balance. The question is will what Naxx adds destroy the income balance that most people enjoy? Will equipment levels and encounter difficulty mean 2g per hour/raiding repair bills?
In this case, the average high end player will be forced into the waiting arms of Naoxhiung and his "come fast, come serve" gold farm. Add on g requirements in the front end of raiding upgrades, added to the cost for new enchantments and I wouldnt be surprised to see the San Fransisco 49ers play their home games next year in IGE Stadium.

WoW devs need to seriously consider the strain they are putting on raiders in their off raiding hours and the consequences of their decisions. Or is "Sorry guys, I cant afford to raid tonight, I need to go farm cash" something Blizz devs want their players in high end guilds to be saying.

[The Black Hand]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

I think the point that Mek is making is pretty interesting.

I know alot of people who have bought gold. Most of the people who do, do it for practical reasons. Me personally, I bought 1000g for 30 bucks because I didnt feel like farming X number of hours for an epic horse. In that regard I have more disposable income than time, so it made sense to me.

What the concern should be is for raiding guilds. Lets assume that for most guilds, at the moment, 1 hour of raiding = 1g in repairs. That may differ up or down for class/difficulty of raid, but that is probably the mean. What that basically means is that to maintain a steady balance of cash, you are required to cash farm X amount of time to support one night of raiding.
For people with scads of free time, this isnt a problem. Log on early in the afternoon, farm, do some pvp, raid till 2am, sleep. But for many this time requirement becomes constrictive, many of us older players are lucky if we can get on 30 minutes before raid time. As such, many players have noticed their gold supply slowly drain away as they tend to make cash in big lumps, instead of steady daily grind. But for the most part, as the game has settled in, people have found a balance. The question is will what Naxx adds destroy the income balance that most people enjoy? Will equipment levels and encounter difficulty mean 2g per hour/raiding repair bills?
In this case, the average high end player will be forced into the waiting arms of Naoxhiung and his "come fast, come serve" gold farm. Add on g requirements in the front end of raiding upgrades, added to the cost for new enchantments and I wouldnt be surprised to see the San Fransisco 49ers play their home games next year in IGE Stadium.

WoW devs need to seriously consider the strain they are putting on raiders in their off raiding hours and the consequences of their decisions. Or is "Sorry guys, I cant afford to raid tonight, I need to go farm cash" something Blizz devs want their players in high end guilds to be saying.

Sorry but any raiding guild that is honest about the game knows this is horseshit. Raiding guilds have money to burn. Argue with me about it - I'll call you a liar and I'll be right.

"Oh no, we wiped learning a raid mob that is going to further widen the gap between us and Timmy Casualguy. Why must we have to pay for this? Why? Why is my guild subjected to such nonsense? My guild who if they are worth a goddamn should have at least 15k gold and unlimited supplies just sitting in the bank."

Seriously, no sympathy. Suck it up.

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by The Black Hand

"But I don't want to log on and do anything but raid..." Yea, ok. How is that Blizzard's problem again?

Maybe you forgot that games are supposed to be enjoyable. For an endgame raider, farming level 55 non-elites for hours just to be able to repair your armor from bugged raid mob wipes is rather annoying.

It's Blizzard's problem if Blizzard introduces an aspect of the game that serves no discernable purpose, but annoys the players.

[Lyenae]

Shut the hell up.

No one forces you to raid every night at an exact time.

Learning encounters has a price on top of time. That's the luxury cost of having most content instanced in WoW. It's not contested, you can do it when you want, but you going to have to pay in gold.

Deal with it.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Zarcath

If AH's were similiar to FFXI's in that it showed the last 20 recent sale prices, that might curb inflation.

Just use Auctioneer?

[The Black Hand]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Maybe you forgot that games are supposed to be enjoyable. For an endgame raider, farming level 55 non-elites for hours just to be able to repair your armor from bugged raid mob wipes is rather annoying.

It's Blizzard's problem if Blizzard introduces an aspect of the game that serves no discernable purpose, but annoys the players.

Enjoyable? You are at the top of the food chain, enjoying 100% of the game when and how you choose. Why are you lying about your situation? Why do you have to farm anything? Why isn't your guild providing you with funds? Again, this isn't Blizzard's problem, it's yours.

I want to know how many hours you have ever farmed for anything? Seriously.

Bugged raid mobs. Stfu and quit. Go play EQ2.

And no discernable purpose. I guess there is no discernable purpose when the purpose is keeping the fabric of the game intact. It's invisible to your 'must have now, must have fast' brain that cannot register anything unless it causes you to jizz from pleasure.

[Gar]

Originally Posted by The Black Hand

"Oh no, we wiped learning a raid mob that is going to further widen the gap between us and Timmy Casualguy. Why must we have to pay for this? Why? Why is my guild subjected to such nonsense? My guild who if they are worth a goddamn should have at least 15k gold and unlimited supplies just sitting in the bank."

Seriously, no sympathy. Suck it up.

Furor, you are honeslty beign an ass here. You yourself argued in EQ among us others to widen the gap in progression in SoV, SoL and PoP.

Are you seriously suggesting here that the amount of farming us raiders do is somewhere in balance with the rewards we get?

For example, I log in 3 hours before the raid each day to farm potions, flasks of titans and gold in a server where 10+ guilds are in need of the same components.

It's allmost at the point where I lose the lust to play WoW when I need to run around blasted lands with 10 other toons trying to reach a herb faster. That is by all means retarded.

Same goes for gold supplies. We farm the same spots as IGE guys do just to play the god damn game. I would be more than happy if I could spend my repair gold on buying potions and that way losing gold from the servers rather than the idiotic way its done atm.

What it comes to guilds, I lead a god damn guild who did cthun month ago and we have constant membership and recruiment problems due the sole fact you force players to leave the game. In EQ I could log into raids, have my fun and log off. In WoW I need to upkeep 10+ herbs, gold and other repairs funds while raiding.

Fuck. For once, come to our level of gameplay and ask your buddies in FoH how much they feel like farming shit just to be able to do the content. Just a reminder, without one hunter in your own fucking guild I bet you and your friends would not have the potion supply you do. Does that mean that every guild has to find 30-40% of their playerbase bored out students out of university or recruit one insane hunter that does work of 20?

Fuck farming, herb gathering and gold for repairs. You know it yourself, stop making a fool of yourself claiming that its good game design.