Lame warrior thread 6/06

[Jubee]

Originally Posted by Cad

Back when traps didn't diminish (they only last 15 seconds anyways)

Do you even realize how fucking crazy a 15 second CC that is unremovable via abilities/clickies is? 15 fucking seconds!? How much more time could you possibly need? Maybe we should just be completely CC'd long enough for you to go out of combat and regen to 100% HP and Mana without eating/drinking and still have time to rez/feed your pet and aimed shot us.

I wish I had it so bad.

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by chu

Go die in a goddamn car fire. Putting a vitality talent will sooner or later make it required. THe key difference between your druid analogy is that a resto druid still has a fucking role in pvp and it probably does it even better in that spec. A protection warrior is absolutely useless in pvp.

Then ask for changes that make protection warriors good in PVP instead of this nonsense.

edit: The vitality talent that was shortly there at the 20 point mark would have crippled warriors in pvp. It would be either 300hp or 5% crit. A much better choice would be to fix the talent and make it +30% hp.

31/5/15 warriors can fuck off. They're useless for any job in raid, Feral druids tank better, holy priests DPS better.

[Vekruul Shuth]

I am one that believes that Arms and Fury are fine. If your even CLOSE to rivaling rogues in DPS with either of these builds…Then move on to improving the protection tree. (I don’t PvP at all…so no comment there.)

I also believe that Prot tree should be an absolute necessity for tanking certain mobs. Off tanked mobs should be tankable thru switch hitting.

Emps? Need a prot warrior. Nef? Need a prot spec. etc etc etc.

Like has been said a million times…There needs to be a 31 point must have talent in the prot tree.

Aggro isn’t the answer. Neither is more damage. Aggro is perfectly fine as is. DPS is handled fine in the other 2 trees. That leaves some form of mitigation or HP’s.

I hear 10% being thrown around out there. I am more inclined to go 20%. At 10k base HP’s that’s a nice buff. And makes last stand pretty nice…along with a few temporary HP trinkets.

It also brings you into the “we need a prot warrior tanking here guys.” Which is what we are all looking for full prot spec.

If HP’s isn’t your thing…Then SOME sort of defense/AC boost for that 31st point would be nice.

Another 5% defense gain. AND a 1000 AC gain. 440 base defense? You can start looking for other stats other than defense.

Something that makes you say “Oh shit!” when you hit that last talent point in a tree.

[Angrier]

Originally Posted by FuckYou

third, as has already been mentioned, wingclip snares more than hamstring, so you can run away.

When arguing PvP (WoW, EQ, ...) this line of thinking certifies you clueless in PvP. Outrun them with 10% difference? You fucking mouthbreather..

P.S.
This is not to say I agree with any of the hunter vs warrior bs.

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Quineloe

31/5/15 warriors can fuck off. They're useless for any job in raid, Feral druids tank better, holy priests DPS better.

wtf? Get a clue before making statements like this

[Wodin]

Originally Posted by Dis

Uhh Wodin, Fury/Prot (with no TM) generates more threat and has as much damage mitigation as a full 31 protection warrior does. Not to mention when I am not MTing a mob I can DPS by switching my gear around.
I would love to see one of our 31 Prot tanks out DPS me.

My build 0/32/19. Flurry is a godsend for weapons like Spineshatter. Improved Taunt, Last Stand, Defiance, Imp Blood rage, Imp Shield Block, Toughness. Past that what else is there in Protection I need?

Note: I used to have 33 in Prot w/ Tact Mastery

I will cheerfully admit I've never seen what Fury/Prot can do. But to say that you've got the same damage mitigation is an outright lie - right off the bat you've thrown 5% parry in the dumpster. That's a hefty sacrifice. I also can't speak to the threat generation, but it seems like 10% across-the-board boosted threat from 1H spec would compare favorably to Flurry with the low crit rate of Wrath and other pure tank gear.

Yes, I'm sure that you can out-DPS a prot warrior when not tanking: the entire point of having prot warriors in the first place is that they are used as tanks and only as tanks. It's not a stacking role, certainly. A raid with 6 protection warriors would suck. But a raid with two protection warriors and four others is going to be better at current and new content than a raid without the protection warriors.

I can only speak to what I experience as a DPS class: when one of our protection warriors is tanking, I can do more damage safely, and he needs to be healed less. I'm not a warrior, so I can't explain why that is: only that that's what I've experienced.

Originally Posted by xar

10% more white damage aggro, that's it. Name one other benefit in damage mitigation or aggro generation that you gain from going past 16 points in protection.

Err, Shield Slam? Snap aggro abilities are a good thing. Improved Shield Wall is also very nice and is a quantifiable increase in damage mitigation in those "oh shit" circumstances.

[James]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

A protection spec warrior, currently? They have a use against paladins in 1 vs 1's, otherwise the warrior should log off and play an alt. It's not the same.

Originally Posted by xar

Currently you sacrafice all of your pvp ability for virtually zero benefit to tanking

Originally Posted by chu

A protection warrior is absolutely useless in pvp.

etc, etc

You guys are on crack, pretty much. Protection warrior PvP is just as viable, helpful, and fun as any other kind of warrior PvP. The damage you sacrifice for the sheer amount of utility gained by going protection spec is not only worth it, but will most likely be required if they ever make a guild vs guild battleground. You get two different kinds of stuns, a debuff, silence, disarm, and a free potion; it's damn near a whole new class.

Granted in a 5 on 5 you aren't going to be doing much as a protection spec warrior, but you can see the difference in AV when you have a competent group of people backing you up. Just imagine how awesomely badass that added utility will be fighting with and against a group of people that have been PvPing together for years.

[Vekruul Shuth]

Err, Shield Slam? Snap aggro abilities are a good thing. Improved Shield Wall is also very nice and is a quantifiable increase in damage mitigation in those "oh shit" circumstances.

Edit: Cause he changed his statement.

It's pretty useless man. I have gone thru entire fights up to C'thun without even bothering to use it. Just to SEE if I could. Its all about timing heroic strikes, spamming sunder and revenge.

Any tank worth his weight won't even come close to needing a snap aggro tool.

I for one LOVE last stand and shield wall. They are my get outta jail free cards IF we have "A situation".

[Tabris]

This thread was fucking retarded but is getting better.

The difference between a Protection and non-Protection Warrior needs to be more noticeable. Yes, there's obviously a measurable difference now, but the difference needs to be more drastic. There should literally be content that cannot be tanked without a full Protection build.

[Clug]

Originally Posted by Kolle

warriors won't get much sympathy as long as they continue raping anything and everything in pvp on top of being the lead pve dps. i know prot wars have more room to whine, but it's not as if other classes are completely replacing warriors as the main tank.

QFT.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by James

etc, etc

You guys are on crack, pretty much. Protection warrior PvP is just as viable, helpful, and fun as any other kind of warrior PvP. The damage you sacrifice for the sheer amount of utility gained by going protection spec is not only worth it, but will most likely be required if they ever make a guild vs guild battleground. You get two different kinds of stuns, a debuff, silence, disarm, and a free potion; it's damn near a whole new class.

I've done guild versus guild BG's in AV back when you could. Prot is useless and for AV was only useful for the PvE elements, which I'd prefer they shitcan anyways.

As a test, I actually PvP'd most of last month in BG in a full prot warrior. The silence is kinda nice, but doesn't last long enough to really matter, especially when other warriors can just time their pummels to get most of the effect.

A free potion is useless because as soon as they find out you're prot spec, you get ignored until the end.

Disarm is nice, but with the immunities (admittedly, not as many people are immune as y'might think) it's not huge. It's just irritating.

Conc blow, again, decent as an interrupt, but doesn't last long enough. That and it brings up another huge issue.

I can't stay close to people as a Prot warrior. I had TM, but the amount of stance shifting to hamstring and intercept with the added factor of not being able to generate rage quickly after I blow bloodrage just murders the prot warrior because, again, people ignore prot warriors because you're not a threat.

You're merely an annoyance, whereas a disc/holy priest can save a pvp group. Seen it happen many times when the PvP group actually cares about protecting them and will see it in the future.

A Prot warrior, unless upgrades are made pvp wise to the prot tree, is useless and should just be logged off.

By the way, I'm for upgrades in the Prot tree, even make it necessary to have one or two for 40 man raids. Just don't do that and leave them festering shitpiles in PvP as it's more limiting then on any other class (imho).

[FuckYou]

When arguing PvP (WoW, EQ, ...) this line of thinking certifies you clueless in PvP. Outrun them with 10% difference? You fucking mouthbreather..

blow me, shithead. 10% mattess when the warrior has a 3.x+ speed weapon. it only takes 5-6 seconds to get out of swing range with a 10% lead.

do you even play a warrior or are you looking at numbers on a page?

[chaos]

When specced protection i can push the line in AV like crazy. With a healer and some kind of ranged, my 3 man group will win the AV for all the simpletons present there. My favorite thing is to free action, charge in, get a good 20 or so on me, then shield wall and last stand while a warlock comes up and hellfires them all down. 9 times out of ten it works;( People are dumb. AV isn't a series of 1v1 battles, not on my server anyway. It's an actual battle with a front line and the troops pushing one way or the other, protection is useful to a group but wont get you up on the scoreboard.

In small scale PVP protection warriors are an exercise in frustration, and will make you hate your class. But in large scale they definitely have their uses.

As for which is more fun as a PVP spec, that should be pretty obvious.

[xar]

Originally Posted by Wodin

Err, Shield Slam? Snap aggro abilities are a good thing. Improved Shield Wall is also very nice and is a quantifiable increase in damage mitigation in those "oh shit" circumstances.

I'm recalling these numbers from off the top of my head, so feel free to correct me here. Shield slam = ~1900 threat. Sunder = ~1100 threat + Heroic = 800 threat. Shield slam is hardly any more snap aggro than a quick sunder + HS. Especially since sun + HS doesn't require a full 30 rage at once.

As for shield wall, are you honestly trying to say that 5 seconds every 30 minutes is a "quantifiable increase in damage mitigation"? Maybe we're talking different "oh shit" situations, but usually the big "oh shit" situations are when a tank dies and a new one needs to step in, which means this would go to best use on your off-tank wars, who would completely gimp themselves the other 99.9% of the time by taking imp shield wall. Even still, 10 seconds should be enough time to make it through the "oh shit" period and get back on track.

Wodin I usually agree with you on just about everything, but I can't say I see where you're going with this.

Edit: Let me add this, I'm not saying protection is totally worthless. No one can deny there's a benefit of having 1-2 protection warriors on a raid, I'm one of those protection wars. That doesn't change the fact that the protection tree in it's current state needs some serious work. Beyond 16 points there is virtually no benefit what-so-ever. Sorry, not even those 5 seconds of 75% less damage taken.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by chaos

When specced protection i can push the line in AV like crazy. With a healer and some kind of ranged, my 3 man group will win the AV for all the simpletons present there. My favorite thing is to free action, charge in, get a good 20 or so on me, then shield wall and last stand while a warlock comes up and hellfires them all down. 9 times out of ten it works;( People are dumb. AV isn't a series of 1v1 battles, not on my server anyway. It's an actual battle with a front line and the troops pushing one way or the other, protection is useful to a group but wont get you up on the scoreboard.

In small scale PVP protection warriors are an exercise in frustration, and will make you hate your class. But in large scale they definitely have their uses.

As for which is more fun as a PVP spec, that should be pretty obvious.

Don't see anywhere in that where a protection warrior is required for that, though. I've done that exact same thing (minus last stand) in AV's and I was fury or arms.

So maybe I should put you gain nothing and lose a lot in PvP by going prot.

Now, if a talent in prot gave challenging shout, taunt, and mocking blow a chance to work in PvP? Hell yes, then we're getting somewhere.

That example, currently, isn't though.

That's why I tried to break down individual abilities and show why it's pointless. Dunno how successful I was, but /shrug

Better then a Utnayan argument.