Plan to resolve WoW dungeon issue casual vs raider - Page 2

Salizar · 05-23-2006, 07:48 PM

1. Diablo was a 2d game, the art to generate 'random' dugeons is completely different that what it takes to generate a 3rd world.
No one that Im aware of yet has developed tech to do 'random' levels in 3d.

The closest thing I have see so far was a random map generator for Quake2(3) which then had to be rendered before it could be used.

The trick here has to do with lighting. The light maps have to be generated, which creates a sudo texture map of the level/zone.

The horse power to generate this data is massive, something that we are just now getting too...

Deathwing · 05-23-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salizar

1. Diablo was a 2d game, the art to generate 'random' dugeons is completely different that what it takes to generate a 3rd world.
No one that Im aware of yet has developed tech to do 'random' levels in 3d.

The closest thing I have see so far was a random map generator for Quake2(3) which then had to be rendered before it could be used.

The trick here has to do with lighting. The light maps have to be generated, which creates a sudo texture map of the level/zone.

The horse power to generate this data is massive, something that we are just now getting too...

I really don't think randomization would solve any problem. Not saying that I don't agree with you about the huge amount of resources it would take...it's just that even if we did, randomization still wouldn't solve the problem. I'm sure everyone that's been farming MC for a year+ would magically find it exciting again if the maps were randomly generated. Yipee, we get Sulfuron first, and Magmadar is last!

Why are casuals still bitching about epics? Get the fuck over yourself. Who fucking cares what they said the endgame would be like before release. WoW has been out for over 2 years, anyone with an ounce of intelligence would be able to figure it out. You get to 60, you raid for the best gear. Deal with it or stop playing.

The "epics for casuals" crowd is really starting to remind me of the elitist mac crowd. There's way too many similarities to point out, but really, think about, could you see Cad arguing for macs over PC's in just about every one of his posts? Just substitute a few words.

joe55 · 05-24-2006, 09:55 AM

ive only read the first post, but it seems completly retarded. as a result of reading this post im jamming dull pens into my face.
why would anyone want to raid and couldnt a group just sit infront of 1 of these superlafagdungeons and continually upgrade their gear
i hate the original poster for his stupid thread, i hope he rotts in hell.

... · 05-24-2006, 01:33 PM

Blarg, it's not about casual vs raider. it's about non-casual non-raid content (pvp, small group) vs non-casual raid content. the casual folks don't care, they're happy to eat boogers and oogle mangina nightelf boobies. It's non-casual non-raiders (again pvp purists, people who can't raid for RL reasons, and fans of single grouping) that have the grumpy.

Deris · 05-26-2006, 06:03 AM

The idea has some merit for BGs.

If there were ~15 variations of 1 BG, and each had different flag placements, NPCs, buffs, etc. it would add alot more excitement to BGs

.

BGs where Horde is defense one game, the next game Alli would be on defense, etc - keep it constantly changing up so 1 specific team makeup can't dominate.

Furism · 05-26-2006, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salizar

1. Diablo was a 2d game, the art to generate 'random' dugeons is completely different that what it takes to generate a 3rd world.
No one that Im aware of yet has developed tech to do 'random' levels in 3d.

Flagship Studios did. Oh, and they are mostly former Blizzard employees. Of course we have yet to see how good the randomly generated dungeons are, but reports from E3 were good, as I recall.

Pilsbane · 05-26-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ...

Blarg, it's not about casual vs raider. it's about non-casual non-raid content (pvp, small group) vs non-casual raid content. the casual folks don't care, they're happy to eat boogers and oogle mangina nightelf boobies. It's non-casual non-raiders (again pvp purists, people who can't raid for RL reasons, and fans of single grouping) that have the grumpy.

I agree.

The truly casual players (like 10 hours or less a week) have a stable of characters in the 20s-30s and have enough content for years of play. The raiders have several raid zones, Naxxramas on the way, and more raid zones coming in the expansion. The PvPers that have all the time in the world can grind for Grand Marshall. It's the guy that can play 20-30 hours a week but for some reason can't raid, say due to schedule conflicts, that is left out in the cold in WoW.

A friend of mine works shiftwork, so he can't consistently make raids. Due to his erratic work schedule he couldn't get into a raiding guild. Even though he could play ~30 hours a week, it was mostly in the morning or really late at night. PvP is also pretty non-existent at those hours on our server. He quit after a couple months of being 60. There really wasn't anything for him to do to progress his character. He wasn't even asking for free epics, just some kind of character progression. AAs. Something.

frott · 05-26-2006, 01:55 PM

At this point I would kill for...

... post AQ20 5 man / 10 man.
... variations of BGs. Diff'rent games, themes, types, goals. Unfortunately making new BGs is completely at odds with actually grinding out rep. Every server will have 1 highly populated BG and the rest ghosttowns due to this.

Fuck all this "get epix lol" there is something missing from the "I don't want to do 20/40 mans, I'm level 60, I'm long since post DM" people.

Pilsbane · 05-26-2006, 02:23 PM

To expand a little, here is a hypothetical scenario:

Meet Bob. Bob works a job with sporadic hours. He can maintain around 25 hours of play time a week but it's not always the same hours. For this reason he is unable to join a serious raiding guild.

It's 1999 and Bob starts playing Everquest. Bob spends about 9 months getting his character to level 50. The Kunark expansion is due out soon so he spends the next few months camping rare spawns while waiting for the expansion.

Kunark hits and he spends another 9 months leveling his character up to 60. Velious is due out soon so he sticks around farming Fungi Tunics in Sebilis until the expansion.

Velious hits and he spends a few months killing dwarves or giants for quest armor and working on various quests like Stormfeather, etc. He then realizes that to progress his character further he'll have to raid. Instead he decides to try out an iksar monk. His twink monk hits 50 in a month and 60 3 months later. He farms the quest armor for his monk too. By this point Luclin is due out soon so he sticks around.

Luclin hits and implements AAs. He spends time in various zones and dungeons getting AAs for his 2 characters. Planes of Power adds 5 more levels and more AAs. He keeps at it. Eventually World of Warcraft is released and many of his friends quit EQ for WoW. He decides to move on to WoW.

End Result: Bob stayed subscribed to Everquest for 5 years without having to raid.

Three months into World of Warcraft Bob is level 60. He spends a month doing strath/spires/scholo runs and his character is decked out in all the best blues. PvP is still pointless at this time. To improve his character he'll have to start raiding. Instead he creates a second character but this time on a PvP server for a change of pace.

Another 3 months go by and he is level 60 again. He spends another month doing instance runs for blues before starting to seriously PvP. He spends a few months getting max faction in the battlegrounds for purples. He realizes he doesn't play enough to ever get Grand Marshall. To improve his character he'll have to start raiding. The expansion is still over a year away at this point. He cancels his account to wait for the expansion.

End Result: Bob stayed subscribed to World of Warcraft for a little less than a year and canceled, waiting for the expansion on the far horizon.

Blizzard, give Bob a reason to resubscribe. He's tired of bouncing around between EQ2, CoV, DDO and Guildwars.

Marauder · 05-26-2006, 02:29 PM

I do like the idea of AA's, and was originally a big proponent of them in WoW - but...
I think it would be extremely hard to balance AA type abilities to PvP.

frott · 05-26-2006, 02:37 PM

Having done user experience matrices for international congloms, I'd have to say fuck catering to Bob because you could never produce enough content for him in a cost effective manner.

He'll get the endgame casual shit and quit again because there is nearly 0 point to it except for use while raiding or PVPing.

Take the box sales and months of subscription and wait for Bob to resub when the expansion comes out.

The pace of the game is far too fast and people gobble up new casual content in no time at all to rely on "expansions." I mean, then you realize that the amount of content EQ had through kunark pales in comparison to where WoW is now, it just took way longer.

Pilsbane · 05-26-2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frott

Having done user experience matrices for international congloms, I'd have to say fuck catering to Bob because you could never produce enough content for him in a cost effective manner.

That's sort of my point. The players like Bob are the ones complaining about WoW because their concerns are being ignored.

Everquest did several things to cater to the Bob:

1. Slower leveling
2. Faster rate of releasing expansions
3. Alternate path to character progression (AAs)

Any one of the three could help solve Bob's boredom problem in WoW, but Blizzard seems resistent to all three. Instead they keep throwing things like tier 0.5 armor quests at him. All that does is buy him a month of questing before he's bored again.

Quineloe · 05-26-2006, 03:20 PM

5 man instances don't have to be about items, they could also drop tradeskill materials in large quantities or rare recipes.

Itzena · 05-26-2006, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilsbane

That's sort of my point. The players like Bob are the ones complaining about WoW because their concerns are being ignored.

No, you're missing the point that Blizzard doesn't care - Bob is not their target market. Any subscription or box sales money from the Bobs out there is gravy to Blizzard but they're not going to risk alientating six and a half million subscribers to keep 100K happy.

Sancus · 05-26-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilsbane

Everquest did several things to cater to the Bob:

It's funny how all the things you list that would cater to Bob would most likely alienate their real market, the true casuals.

Why Blizzard wants 100k Bobs clogging up their servers even more with 35 hours a week play time going through content like wildfire instead of a few million Steves who play 5-10 hours a week(if that), pay the same amount, use less bandwidth and customer service resources, and use up content at a much slower pace, I have no idea.

Seems to me like Bob's problem is that he's not a desirable customer.

05-26-2006, 06:03 AM	#20 (permalink)
Deris Touching things that shouldn't be touched. Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Fl. Posts: 1,606 -5 Internets	But The idea has some merit for BGs. If there were ~15 variations of 1 BG, and each had different flag placements, NPCs, buffs, etc. it would add alot more excitement to BGs . BGs where Horde is defense one game, the next game Alli would be on defense, etc - keep it constantly changing up so 1 specific team makeup can't dominate. __________________ Volko - Paladin Shail - Priest Melko - Warrior Deris the Reaver (retired.)

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05-23-2006, 07:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
Salizar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 152 -1 Internets	1. Diablo was a 2d game, the art to generate 'random' dugeons is completely different that what it takes to generate a 3rd world. No one that Im aware of yet has developed tech to do 'random' levels in 3d. The closest thing I have see so far was a random map generator for Quake2(3) which then had to be rendered before it could be used. The trick here has to do with lighting. The light maps have to be generated, which creates a sudo texture map of the level/zone. The horse power to generate this data is massive, something that we are just now getting too...

05-24-2006, 09:55 AM	#18 (permalink)
joe55 Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 16 +0 Internets	ive only read the first post, but it seems completly retarded. as a result of reading this post im jamming dull pens into my face. why would anyone want to raid and couldnt a group just sit infront of 1 of these superlafagdungeons and continually upgrade their gear i hate the original poster for his stupid thread, i hope he rotts in hell.

05-24-2006, 01:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
... Avatar won't work. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ... Posts: 1,727 +0 Internets	Blarg, it's not about casual vs raider. it's about non-casual non-raid content (pvp, small group) vs non-casual raid content. the casual folks don't care, they're happy to eat boogers and oogle mangina nightelf boobies. It's non-casual non-raiders (again pvp purists, people who can't raid for RL reasons, and fans of single grouping) that have the grumpy.

05-26-2006, 01:55 PM	#23 (permalink)
frott Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,390 +0 Internets	At this point I would kill for... ... post AQ20 5 man / 10 man. ... variations of BGs. Diff'rent games, themes, types, goals. Unfortunately making new BGs is completely at odds with actually grinding out rep. Every server will have 1 highly populated BG and the rest ghosttowns due to this. Fuck all this "get epix lol" there is something missing from the "I don't want to do 20/40 mans, I'm level 60, I'm long since post DM" people.

05-26-2006, 02:23 PM	#24 (permalink)
Pilsbane Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 242 +1 Internets	To expand a little, here is a hypothetical scenario: Meet Bob. Bob works a job with sporadic hours. He can maintain around 25 hours of play time a week but it's not always the same hours. For this reason he is unable to join a serious raiding guild. It's 1999 and Bob starts playing Everquest. Bob spends about 9 months getting his character to level 50. The Kunark expansion is due out soon so he spends the next few months camping rare spawns while waiting for the expansion. Kunark hits and he spends another 9 months leveling his character up to 60. Velious is due out soon so he sticks around farming Fungi Tunics in Sebilis until the expansion. Velious hits and he spends a few months killing dwarves or giants for quest armor and working on various quests like Stormfeather, etc. He then realizes that to progress his character further he'll have to raid. Instead he decides to try out an iksar monk. His twink monk hits 50 in a month and 60 3 months later. He farms the quest armor for his monk too. By this point Luclin is due out soon so he sticks around. Luclin hits and implements AAs. He spends time in various zones and dungeons getting AAs for his 2 characters. Planes of Power adds 5 more levels and more AAs. He keeps at it. Eventually World of Warcraft is released and many of his friends quit EQ for WoW. He decides to move on to WoW. End Result: Bob stayed subscribed to Everquest for 5 years without having to raid. Three months into World of Warcraft Bob is level 60. He spends a month doing strath/spires/scholo runs and his character is decked out in all the best blues. PvP is still pointless at this time. To improve his character he'll have to start raiding. Instead he creates a second character but this time on a PvP server for a change of pace. Another 3 months go by and he is level 60 again. He spends another month doing instance runs for blues before starting to seriously PvP. He spends a few months getting max faction in the battlegrounds for purples. He realizes he doesn't play enough to ever get Grand Marshall. To improve his character he'll have to start raiding. The expansion is still over a year away at this point. He cancels his account to wait for the expansion. End Result: Bob stayed subscribed to World of Warcraft for a little less than a year and canceled, waiting for the expansion on the far horizon. Blizzard, give Bob a reason to resubscribe. He's tired of bouncing around between EQ2, CoV, DDO and Guildwars.

05-26-2006, 02:29 PM	#25 (permalink)
Marauder Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 321 +0 Internets	I do like the idea of AA's, and was originally a big proponent of them in WoW - but... I think it would be extremely hard to balance AA type abilities to PvP.

05-26-2006, 02:37 PM	#26 (permalink)
frott Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,390 +0 Internets	Having done user experience matrices for international congloms, I'd have to say fuck catering to Bob because you could never produce enough content for him in a cost effective manner. He'll get the endgame casual shit and quit again because there is nearly 0 point to it except for use while raiding or PVPing. Take the box sales and months of subscription and wait for Bob to resub when the expansion comes out. The pace of the game is far too fast and people gobble up new casual content in no time at all to rely on "expansions." I mean, then you realize that the amount of content EQ had through kunark pales in comparison to where WoW is now, it just took way longer.

05-26-2006, 03:20 PM	#28 (permalink)
Quineloe Hard Rock Hallelujah Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,785 -14 Internets	5 man instances don't have to be about items, they could also drop tradeskill materials in large quantities or rare recipes.