MMOGChart does an E3 roundup

[Cybsled]

Games like Horizons and Irth Online and WWII Online all have some really great stuff in them, but there are also reasons why they'll never have 100K subscribers.

They had some great concepts, but all of them poorly realized. WW2O had a poor launch (if I remember correctly, their servers were evicted and had to be moved around release), but what ended up killing it was horrible network code (which made flying next to impossible) and an extremely unintuitive and overly complex control scheme, ie 3 seperate commands just to shoot a rifle. Coupled with the fact that the scope of the game was far more limited then previously advertised, not to mention the subsequent release of BF1942, killed the title for the general market, leaving only the hardcore history fans.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by SirBruce

PS - And the subscriber numbers on the rest of the site are still old. I'm working on a new update currently. WoW is up to 6.5 million...

Sir Bruce,

I am curious how hard it is to get good data on sub numbers. I imagine it is very hard. If you are talking to someone inside of a company to get data, they have to realize that sub numbers are either good advertising or bad advertising. If sub numbers are falling, its not something you want to get out. And conversely, if you had a vested interest in your company, you'd be foolish to not say you have 100 million subs (or some other crazy number like that). For a game like WoW, the fact it is growing almost seems to create a "buzz" that makes for even more subs. Its kind of a "snowball effect."

I bet that at every company, management has told employees what to say/not say, and its tough to sort through the b.s. to get the real numbers. Care to illuminate me? Thanks.

[Itzena]

Speaking of the Vanguard forums, they're starting to gain infamy:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Ok Hearless, here's the scoop. No, I'm not going to break the NDA and go into specifics about what the game has, shouldn't have or needs.

But I will tell you what's primarily wrong with beta right now. You may find it's not what the typical critics would think.

These are from my own personal notes that I keep, yet refuse to post because of the assholes in that beta.

This is one excerpt:

======================

The forums take peaks of highs and lows. You can literally sense people trying to like this game. People trying suspiciously hard to find something to write about on the forums that's positive. Unfortunately, these recounts are absent of any detail and hardly convince me that there is something more I haven't gotten to see that will change my perspective drastically.

I often wondered why that is. I have drawn the conclusion that people are afraid to speak constructively based on the firing squad that sits there refreshing the screen every minute to see who would dare speak when not spoken to.

They default to debating about MMOG's in general as a result. This indicates strongly that people do see a barren and shapeless world before them, even though they dare not admit it publically. I get the sense they are thrilled for an opportunity to mold this game into what they want it to be. Egos run rampant in this regard and several of the more vocal beta players are insistent upon getting their ideas burned into the blueprint. Especially when these people notice that the ink isn't even dry on that blueprint.

I dare say, the imagined wonderful Vanguard they testify about on the forums, is a contrived line of bullshit used as a means to suck up to developers in order to get their own ideas written into the design. If the design was there, they would just be testing. But considering it's not, this leaves an opportunity for the wannabe-game-designer, to gain a captive audience.

And captives we are. Many an unhappy tester has been silenced regularly by these fanatics who put any and every comment under their own jaded microscopes. Unfortunately this activity goes unchecked by any form of moderation. Subsequently, what you get is nothing but chastisement by the regular fanbois who seek to mold this game the way they see fit. Anyone pointing out the existing flaws, is summarily lynched, tarred and feathered, despite the validity of their concerns.

Even a developer was called on the carpet by beta players as recent as two weeks ago. The disrespect and rudeness of the regular, vocal dissenters of MMOG-today, ruthlessly bit into this poor guy like a pack of wolves. Just as the animals they are, at the first smell of blood, they all wanted a piece of him. The crime? The mere suggestion that corpse runs were not a fun factor and should be removed to a lesser penalty then what currently exists in Vanguard right now. What did Brad do? He basically apologized for his staff's outburst.

There is also a curious hatred for World of Warcraft, specifically. Curious, because much of what World of Warcraft has done was based on the original Everquest design and expounded from there. It's certainly ironic how these fanbois will rip apart anything WoW, yet praise, anything Everquest.

To the detriment of Vanguard, they will protest any implementation that even remotely resembles a mechanic within World of Warcraft. Good or bad, it doesn't matter. If it's something within WoW, they want it O-U-T. Likewise, if you are from WoW, they want YOU out, too. They've already succeeded in driving out many of those testers. They're long gone and I can't say I blame them.

I can't help, considering all that, but feel pity for Brad McQuaid. Here's a man who started out with a "vision" and held an open forum for years before beta, allowing others to share his space and ideas.

Yet something happened between then and now. Something worth pitying the man over. His leniency and viewpoints were thrown back in his face from disgruntled game-junkies from all over the virtual world spectrum. Vanguard is where many of the disgruntled and disbanded landed to bum a free meal. In the process, they are now trying to steal the keys to his house and his car and have already taken over his computer. The only thing left is to just hand over the code because they've already gotten into his game.

How can you not feel sorry for a man who now sits out on his own front steps, wondering if he should call the police or the psycho ward to rid them off of his property?

The game may very well be lifeless due to the fact that he doesn't know himself anymore, what it is he should do.

The void in his game speaks volumes towards the fact that he fears developing it the way it needs to be done.

Let's face it, this is a very capable man. He's demonstrated that with his history. A man who created Everquest, wrote the design for the lands, the characters, the events, etc. He's not stupid by any means. Yet his new world reflects a man who fears even adding the simplest mapping feature, for instance. A feature, so subetly done this past week, but was met with OUTRAGE by touted old-school gamers. How can a man function under that kind of idiotic pressure?

Vanguard's progress is evidence that he can't. His FAQ is constantly thrown in his face. An FAQ that was written years ago and probably has been totally reconsidered based on the fact that under 100 people are logging into his beta daily. It's not because the game doesn't have potential. It's more probably because normal people don't have time, nor energy, to put up with the nuts in that place and that's the truth!

Note to the clueless FAQ-touter: That page was taken down last week. Without fanfare or notice, it was quietly swept off the internet and replaced by the infamous "page not found" message. You have to get the impression that MAYBE this guy has finally realized SOMETHING?

While realization is the first step and is a good thing, he still has yet to rid himself of the crackpot company he has allowed in there.

My suggestion is to close beta entirely. Shut it down and use the excuse that time is now needed due to the change of publishers from Microsoft to Sony Online Entertainment. Say that hardware restructuring needs to be done and don't hold Vanguard to any reappearance date. Shut down the forums with a simple message that you will be back up after the transition is complete.

Dump all your beta testers to date and start fresh after you're back online and have something done to offer them.

Put in the ideas you have wanted to add and improve without having to get "permission" from your existing, suicidal fan-base.

Maybe then you can go back to enjoying what you do best - designing games.

[xilsharn]

God damn, that's a pretty scathing indictment Itzena. I look forward to Brad posting, if he does. I don't know much about Vanguard, haven't been following it closely only because I recognized the fanaticism around it years ago as something I saw and implode around WoW. Can't trust the fanbois, obv.

With that said, anytime you're putting a project under that much of a microscope so early it's going to be pulled apart. Tsktsk.

BTW that post deserves its own thread Itz.

[Skars]

Edit: ^^^^ Yeh I can't see Brad touching this with a 50 ft pole.

Some of that shit is so spot on the VG forums it's scary

[Hateyou]

That's pretty much what my friends in beta were saying 6+ months ago as well. Pretty sad that those forum retards seem to be running the direction of the game instead of doing actual testing, if that's true.

[xilsharn]

Originally Posted by Skars

Edit: ^^^^ Yeh I can't see Brad touching this with a 50 ft pole.

Some of that shit is so spot on the VG forums it's scary

Which is bad. Rejecting a megasuccessful game like WoW (just because half its subscribers are in China doesn't mean shit) simply because it's "too easy" is retarded. Whether it's "your" style of game or not you have to, imo, look with an eye toward what works in it as well as what doesn't. Otherwise you're forcing yourself to gain distance between a good game mechanic. I mean saying "hell no" to mapping? Durr? I assume this means the type of mapping system EQ put in around the LDON era? All NOT having maps will do is force people to go to websites that have captures of the zone images earlier in the game life than normal. Yippee.

[Andric d'Regor]

Originally Posted by Hateyou

That's pretty much what my friends in beta were saying 6+ months ago as well. Pretty sad that those forum retards seem to be running the direction of the game instead of doing actual testing, if that's true.

from what Ive heard its pretty accurate as well. To quote one guildy "I hardly grouped at all - mainly I was shit scared I'd actually have to group with one of those wankers"

[Skars]

Originally Posted by xilsharn

Which is bad. Rejecting a megasuccessful game like WoW .

Exactly. Never ceases to amaze me how people write up WoW's success to "12 yr olds" or "Blizzard" or "Rang Rangs". There is a reason a lot of people play it.

[Darus Grey]

As far as i know, you can't get a kb/mouse to work within the 360 games. You can use a kb to type on the menu screens for messages and such, but I think that's all atm. I really with they would offer full kb/mouse support for all games, but I don't think MS wants that. If you're going to be competing with people on pc's, it seems like they really would need to make an exception though.

KB and Mouse can be activated on 360 by the game-makers, it doesn't work with all games, but developers are freely able to enable it for any game.

[SirBruce]

Originally Posted by Hateyou

He seems pretty defensive lately. He takes this article apart piece by piece, pretty much saying it's not worth reading and all wrong, then goes on to praise all the good reviews. He even pointed out where the good reviews are.

I know it's his baby, it just seems kind of wierd. Surely he knows there is going to be criticism? Has he always been that bad about getting a negative review?

What surprised me was that I was less-than-positive on Vanguard at last E3, and Brad made a deal about it then, and said he was willing to convince me otherwise and would make sure I'd get a chance to fully see it this year. This year, they didn't invite me for a meeting, and what I saw in public simply didn't impress me. Now, I don't need a private meeting to give a good profile -- many companies didn't have time for a private meeting for me this year, which is fine, because honestly they get more important coverage from the mainstream news and media outlets. I was more surprised, because I thought Brad was genuine in his desire to engage with me on the product, and yet didn't, and then acts all defensive when my profile didn't seem to be in love with his product. What did he expect? I made an effort to be convinced, he didn't reciprocate, and despite keeping an open mind, I wasn't convinced. I think he just took the opportunity to pander to his rabid fanbase on the message boards.

Bruce

[xilsharn]

Originally Posted by SirBruce

I was more surprised, because I thought Brad was genuine in his desire to engage with me on the product, and yet didn't, and then acts all defensive when my profile didn't seem to be in love with his product.

How far, exactly, do you expect that poor son of a bitch to bend over backwards for you and the other ten million reviewers slavering to see that game?

[SirBruce]

Originally Posted by Lyrical

Sir Bruce,

I am curious how hard it is to get good data on sub numbers. I imagine it is very hard. If you are talking to someone inside of a company to get data, they have to realize that sub numbers are either good advertising or bad advertising. If sub numbers are falling, its not something you want to get out. And conversely, if you had a vested interest in your company, you'd be foolish to not say you have 100 million subs (or some other crazy number like that). For a game like WoW, the fact it is growing almost seems to create a "buzz" that makes for even more subs. Its kind of a "snowball effect."

I bet that at every company, management has told employees what to say/not say, and its tough to sort through the b.s. to get the real numbers. Care to illuminate me? Thanks.

It's very tough. And somehow I'm one of the few people who has managed to become a clearinghouse for that sort of information. It was never my goal to finagle such a role for myself in the industry -- I made the first charts on a whim -- but it just snowballed from there. I got the numbers because no one else was collecting them, at least not making them freely available, and even in the many months I've taken off from my reporting, little has changed. I've some good established relationships with many companies now who can trust me to report the data fairly and impartially. Others are finding out that it's better to work with me to get accurate data on the site than to have bad sources giving me bad data that the public regards as factual.

But yeah, many companies want to talk about numbers when they're going up but not when they're going down. I get a lot of numbers from public sources (Blizzard's press releases, NCSoft's quarterly statements, etc.), and some numbers I get direct from the compay CEOs. But there are some games I have to rely on insiders giving me confidential information anonymously. Like any reporter, I have to evaluate the reliability of the sources and decide whether or not I can trust their number. A few times I've been wrong, and I always update the site when that happens. (That's why I don't provide old reports -- the most recent version has all the revised data.) I even created a confidence rating system to help the consumer evaluate the validity of the source -- A for official statements, B for reliable private sources, C for suspect data, etc.

It's far from perfect, but the fact is it's the best system we have now, until the industry gets serious and starts being fully open and transparent with its data. And it's better than the old system where people would post "Which game has more subscribers?" and get a lot of varied and speculative responses.

Bruce

[Araxen]

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

KB and Mouse can be activated on 360 by the game-makers, it doesn't work with all games, but developers are freely able to enable it for any game.

I know I've read somewhere were MS prohibts the use of kb/mouse being enable for games. I just can't pin it down where.

[SirBruce]

Originally Posted by xilsharn

How far, exactly, do you expect that poor son of a bitch to bend over backwards for you and the other ten million reviewers slavering to see that game?

I saw the game they were showing to the vast majority of people, and I commented on what I saw. I also commented on various other things that were known about the game, and the lack of any demos of the crafting or diplomacy or much besides the combat. Brad said, "Oh no, we were showing the other stuff too!" Maybe so, but that must have been behind closed doors where only a select few reviewers saw it.

I don't expect him to bend over backwards at all. I DO expect, though, that if his response to my comments is, "Oh, but you actually need to spend more time hands-on with the game to truly appreciate it", that when given the opportunity, he'd actually make sure I had more time hands-on with the game. And when he didn't, he wouldn't act all defensive that I still wasn't convinced. I got to see what most other people got to see, and it was, "Eh. Okay. You really think that'll be fun? Hey, let's go check out Gods & Heroes..."

Bruce