A Grammer of Gameplay - Koster

[Quineloe]

Originally Posted by zdonovan

Kind of like everyone's opinions in this thread?

given how our opinions made us not play SWG I disagree :P

[Ossoi]

Originally Posted by zdonovan

Kind of like everyone's opinions in this thread?

Did you even play SWG? You realise the game was so bad that it received two redesigns, the second of which rebuilt the game entirely?

Guess who was responsible for the unbalanced mess it was at release, yea that's right Koster who says on his website "fun is more important than game balance".

...

And if you need me to explain why game balance should be a priority for multiplayer games, then you truly are a retard.

[painbringer]

Originally Posted by Ossoi

Reading books on Game Theory written by Koster is like reading a book on Directing and Editing by Uwe Boll

Thumbs up.

Rare to see someone sum it up like that, that should be added on amazon as first and most relevant description of his book when it makes it that far.

Edit: A small crusade from the readers on this forum should EASILY make it the most relevant comment at amazon, with a "500 of 510 people found the following review helpful".

[Samus Aran]

Originally Posted by Ossoi

Did you even play SWG? You realise the game was so bad that it received two redesigns, the second of which rebuilt the game entirely?

Guess who was responsible for the unbalanced mess it was at release, yea that's right Koster who says on his website "fun is more important than game balance".

...

And if you need me to explain why game balance should be a priority for multiplayer games, then you truly are a retard.

My point is this. EQ and UO are two substantially different games. When they were the only MMO's out, very rarely(past the EQ launch) did someone switch to the other game. SW:G was built in the spirit of UO, I don't think anyone would argue that. On a board filled with EQ vets, myself included, it doesn't shock and suprise me that people flame SW:G to oblivion.

What does suprise me is that people can't see that the game was made to appeal to a different type of gamer, and was successful(as was his first project, UO). I know, it's hard not to make a profit with the Star Wars license, and perhaps it would've done better if was done in an EQ-esque style.

Bottom line is, this guy made two successful games (that I personally don't enjoy), and has more than enough experience to write a book on it. I just think the attacks on Raph Koster, and the SUCCESSFUL games he made are bullshit.

...and yes, I did play SW:G for a few months pre-NGE, and no, I don't subscribe anymore.

[Soygen]

He had the fucking Holy Grail of gaming: a Star Wars license, but instead of galactic strife, we got cantina dancing online.

Well in his defense, many, many developers have fucked up your so-called "Holy Grail of gaming".

[Eomer]

Reading books on Game Theory written by Koster is like reading a book on Directing and Editing by Uwe Boll

And listening to the opinions of posters on game design and development whose only experience with games is whining about them is like asking Searyx for advice on fashion and beard trimming.

[Soygen]

Originally Posted by zdonovan

What does suprise me is that people can't see that the game was made to appeal to a different type of gamer, and was successful(as was his first project, UO).

Why does this surprise you? It's like the crux of every single argument on this forum. If everyone just sat back and said, "Well maybe while this game doesn't appeal to me, it does appeal to someone else(and possibly a whole lot of someone elses)" this forum would be a barren wasteland.

Not to say that I don't agree with your sentiment; just saying that people tearing shit apart on this forum shouldn't be surprising to you.

[Jasek]

Originally Posted by zdonovan

My point is this. EQ and UO are two substantially different games. When they were the only MMO's out, very rarely(past the EQ launch) did someone switch to the other game. SW:G was built in the spirit of UO, I don't think anyone would argue that. On a board filled with EQ vets, myself included, it doesn't shock and suprise me that people flame SW:G to oblivion.

What does suprise me is that people can't see that the game was made to appeal to a different type of gamer, and was successful(as was his first project, UO). I know, it's hard not to make a profit with the Star Wars license, and perhaps it would've done better if was done in an EQ-esque style.

Bottom line is, this guy made two successful games (that I personally don't enjoy), and has more than enough experience to write a book on it. I just think the attacks on Raph Koster, and the SUCCESSFUL games he made are bullshit.

...and yes, I did play SW:G for a few months pre-NGE, and no, I don't subscribe anymore.

My problem with Raph is that he is a hippy. All the shit that he insists is the IMPORTANT part of gaming, and he claims are "Core game design principles" are the ones that gamers don't care about. In Raph's terms, Second Life and TSO are godlike, and WoW is a horrible failure. He has a fundamental disconnect from people that actually play games, he wants to "Make worlds, man". The people that run Kazola's Tavern in UO and cantinas in SWG are a tiny sliver of the game's population - and that is who he caters to, designs to, in his bizzaro world, those are the only real "gamers" and everyone else is a psychopath.

The reason the games he contributed to sold over 50k boxes is because they actually had, you know, games designed into them in addition to fuzzy-wuzzy-ville. His version of PvP is two people arguing about what the color blue tastes like. I actually thought his promotion in SOE was a good thing - as Creative Director he could apply his design goals to EQ2, design the systems for the social gamers, etc - instead he contributed the almost universally unused Heroic Opportunity system.

At the core, I guess, it's that Raph thinks that Social Gaming is the only valid type of gaming when in reality the social aspect is one of many - and in most people's eyes, one of lesser importance, but that people still line up at the door to worship him boggles my mind.

[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by Jasek

instead he contributed the almost universally unused Heroic Opportunity system.

Been playing EQ2 for 3 months now and still don't get the Heroic Opportunity thing. /boggle

[Soygen]

instead he contributed the almost universally unused Heroic Opportunity system

I was under the impression that veteran EQ2 players use the HO system a lot?

[Etadanik]

What the fuck is fun if not a blanket term to mean everything good and cozy about a game? It's like the term "good," as in "this is a good game."

Okay, but that says absolutely jack about the game.

[Jasek]

Occasionally, while in a pickup group, you will be stunned to see the wheel come up. Sometimes when camping or xp grinding with buddies, we will use it as a way to relieve the monotony. But as an actual gameplay benefit, they are lackluster at best.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Jasek

In Raph's terms, Second Life and TSO are godlike, and WoW is a horrible failure. He has a fundamental disconnect from people that actually play games, he wants to "Make worlds, man". The people that run Kazola's Tavern in UO and cantinas in SWG are a tiny sliver of the game's population - and that is who he caters to, designs to, in his bizzaro world, those are the only real "gamers" and everyone else is a psychopath.

Obligatory:

[Jasek]

A picture is truly worth a thousand words.

[Neric]

Once again...

The big question is why so many people spend their whole freetime (and more) to play these online-games.

"It's fun" is just one possible answer, certainly not the only one. Limiting further research to just "fun" means ignoring other factors and with that ignoring a significant part of the playerbase. Maybe that was Koster's mistake.