A Grammer of Gameplay - Koster - Page 2

Soygen · 05-22-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

I miss the form of zonewide ..... communication with everyone.

Couple minutes of Barrens General will cure that nostalgia.

Neric · 05-22-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soygen

You played, for who knows how long, something you didn't think was fun? What's wrong with you?

100% correct. I played something that boring for so long, because fun alone wasn't the motivation for me. That's actually what I am trying to tell you guys for years now. All those people who think that fun was the reason why EQ was successful are flat out wrong.

"Fun" isn't the reason why marathon runners keep running and if you ever camped stuff like a Glowing Black Stone or Pearl Kedge Totem or worked your ass off to get a serverfirst kill, you know that EQ much was closer to running a marathon than it was to Diablo.

The key word is "ambition"....

Soygen · 05-22-2006, 06:35 AM

Quote:

The key word is "ambition"....

Err...ok.

Well I liked EQ because it was fun. I had a good time playing and making new friends. The game had a lot of tedious shit, but it also had a lot things fun about it. I must be some kind of sicko!

Quineloe · 05-22-2006, 06:35 AM

the point is that various activities in MMORPGs are not fun. The difference is that you can put fun into it by adding the social aspect, aka grouping while farming. That's the main problem I have with highend WoW right now, too much of the farming is done solo. Herbalism, Mining, Fishing and gold is best done solo, especially the harvesting skills can't even be done in a group.

5 man dungeons could greatly improve this, dire maul has already given a good example for mining. Now if the trash coughed up a bigger amount of cash, you might actually run 5mans for the gold and shards. Outside raids and PVP, WoW is so solofriendly, it has become antisocial.

ZeckEQ · 05-22-2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soygen

Couple minutes of Barrens General will cure that nostalgia.

I think your giving Barrens General to much credit, I turn that shit off in a matter of seconds.

Venjenz · 05-22-2006, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neric

100% correct. I played something that boring for so long, because fun alone wasn't the motivation for me. That's actually what I am trying to tell you guys for years now. All those people who think that fun was the reason why EQ was successful are flat out wrong.

Fun was one reason, but not the reason. EQ succeeded for a number of reasons that go beyond fun. Timesinks with tangible results were a huge part of the success. Think of epic weapons. To gear a guild with epics took serious time committments, even at 6 hours per day of your entire guild being online. And peopel did it. Keying for Sleepers and Vex Thal and the elemental planes took time, and people did it. But EQ was the most complete and complex MMO going for about 5 years, and lack of competition played a huge part as well. If fun had no part in EQ's success, it would have been like SWG, i.e. a complete flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neric

"Fun" isn't the reason why marathon runners keep running and if you ever camped stuff like a Glowing Black Stone or Pearl Kedge Totem or worked your ass off to get a serverfirst kill, you know that EQ much was closer to running a marathon than it was to Diablo.

Actually, many marathon runners would tell you the opposite. And I camped the GBS, Hadden's fishbone earring, Stormfeather, the materials for the Coldain shawl, and a ton of other crap that took a long time (Verina Tomb in Neriak comes to mind...). I get that sometimes EQ was reduced to interminable amounts of staring at the screen and killing placeholders. But once you got those items, you were done getting them, and the feeling of accomplishment was fun, at least to me.

A great example was gearing your guild in NToV gear. It took a long time, even for the uberguilds. Clearing all the way through Vulak was no small task, but how many times did we all do it? And of those times, how often did you personally spend the DKP to get a drop? Did it matter? I don't know about you, but killing NToV dragons and doing the AoW cycle never got boring for me. And PoP was a good time, especially relearning necro play with aggro kiting. EQ was fun for me for close to 3 years, and no game as held me attentive that long before or since.

You may have hated EQ and still played it out of ambition, but I had loads of fun playing the game. When it stopped being fun, I stopped giving SOE money. I give them money now for EQ2 because it's fun. When that fun stops, I'll stop paying for it. It takes a colossal moron to spend vast amounts of time and a continual stream of money to voluntarily play a game they have absolutely no fun playing.

Samus Aran · 05-22-2006, 07:03 AM

Fun is subjective.

PS. Raph Koster makes more money than you.

Weritech · 05-22-2006, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neric

100% correct. I played something that boring for so long, because fun alone wasn't the motivation for me. That's actually what I am trying to tell you guys for years now. All those people who think that fun was the reason why EQ was successful are flat out wrong.

"Fun" isn't the reason why marathon runners keep running and if you ever camped stuff like a Glowing Black Stone or Pearl Kedge Totem or worked your ass off to get a serverfirst kill, you know that EQ much was closer to running a marathon than it was to Diablo.

The key word is "ambition"....

Nope. It's all about when, how and why you played EQ. For me, EQ was genuinely *fun* and full of mystery and adventure for many months. I didn't stop having fun in EQ until just before Kunark and quit for good soon after that.

If the credits had rolled after killing Nagafen I would look back on EQ very little negative to say about it.

Deris · 05-22-2006, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zdonovan

Fun is subjective.

PS. Raph Koster makes more money than you.

This guy won.

Neric,

You don't determine what is 'fun' for me or anyone else. Fun for me is chugging a 1/5th of jack, and driving down the highway at top speed while trying to solve a Rubik's Cube.

Maybe fun for you is getting anally massaged by a hairy man-behemoth. We all have our own terms of fun, and EQ was most definitely fun. Exploration was fun in EQ. Grouping was fun in EQ. TIME TO SLAY THE DRAGON was fun in EQ.

Quineloe · 05-22-2006, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zdonovan

Fun is subjective.

PS. Raph Koster makes more money than you.

you think so?
I'm pretty sure unemployed people don't have a high salary ;P

Weritech · 05-22-2006, 07:34 AM

Imo...

All these MMOs need to set a beginning and end for their games and stick to it.

I'd much rather see great, complete, polished games released on a scheduled similar to console RPGs. The current MMO template is to launch with 3 months worth of content, patch in 3 more months - 3 months to late and repeat. By the two year mark you have a game with 1 year of content that should have existed at release and the core systems are starting to pop rivets under the stress of content unimagined during the tuning of official beta.

A 2-year MMO is becoming equivalent to the fourth season of a once "hit" TV show or the third sequel to a gimmicky movie franchise.

GrobbeeTrull · 05-22-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure unemployed people don't have a high salary ;P

I'm willing to bet he's made so much money in the past he has investments working for him right now that make more money than most.

If you made a lot of money like Raph once did, you'd know that.

ArkturusMaximus · 05-22-2006, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neric

Key point one to understand MMORPGs:

Everquest was a game with almost zero fun! Still it was very successful. Fun is not a required element to be successful.

Yeah it sure wasn't fun running around SRo at lvl 30 with all 3 rares on my ass.

Wasn't fun watching a pothead guildmate charge Sontalak solo when he thought the rest of us were going in too.

Fun was nowhere in sight when me and some guildmates would help rescue a newer guild from a bad Fear break.

Fun was being held hostage when I used to roam around PoGrowth on my non-kos pally just soaking in the atmosphere.

I see your point...

Sheaf · 05-22-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slide

Raph Koster is up there with John Romero as a god of game design.

Romero made one bad game. One.

He was instrumental in creating some of the best games of all time (Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, Quake, etc.) Think before you post.

Algol Devilstar · 05-22-2006, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarderX

Everquest was fun, just in different ways compared to warcraft.

EQ was funner when dealing with other people, for example.
EQ was funner to explore, funner in a way that 'more-risk = more fun'
etc..

PS, "grammar" is spelt with two a's, no a-e

Did you just give spelling lessons when you have no clue how to use, "more fun?" Funner, lol!

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05-22-2006, 06:35 AM	#19 (permalink)
Quineloe Hard Rock Hallelujah Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,786 -15 Internets	the point is that various activities in MMORPGs are not fun. The difference is that you can put fun into it by adding the social aspect, aka grouping while farming. That's the main problem I have with highend WoW right now, too much of the farming is done solo. Herbalism, Mining, Fishing and gold is best done solo, especially the harvesting skills can't even be done in a group. 5 man dungeons could greatly improve this, dire maul has already given a good example for mining. Now if the trash coughed up a bigger amount of cash, you might actually run 5mans for the gold and shards. Outside raids and PVP, WoW is so solofriendly, it has become antisocial.

05-22-2006, 07:03 AM	#22 (permalink)
Samus Aran Sons of the Storm Heal Bitch Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 773 -1 Internets	Fun is subjective. PS. Raph Koster makes more money than you.

05-22-2006, 07:34 AM	#26 (permalink)
Weritech Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 383 +0 Internets	Imo... All these MMOs need to set a beginning and end for their games and stick to it. I'd much rather see great, complete, polished games released on a scheduled similar to console RPGs. The current MMO template is to launch with 3 months worth of content, patch in 3 more months - 3 months to late and repeat. By the two year mark you have a game with 1 year of content that should have existed at release and the core systems are starting to pop rivets under the stress of content unimagined during the tuning of official beta. A 2-year MMO is becoming equivalent to the fourth season of a once "hit" TV show or the third sequel to a gimmicky movie franchise.