1.11 PTR Patch Notes

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Drauk

You realise that there is very little difference between situation you described and getting T3 ? Retroactive buff to PvP armor is retarded. I know getting even R13 is huge work, but it is way less man-hours spent than gearing in PvE.

Right. If Blizzard actually did what I just described, there would be a collosal uproar, and rightly so. Telling current Tier2 owners that "sorry, you have to go back to BWL, MC and Ony to collect your new set ALL OVER AGAIN" vs. just putting in a retro upgrade.
At the very least, it would be cake because those players would be geared up and already know the ropes of those zones. However, there would be much sour grapes over the fact that people coming into BWL *NOW* get the better stuff right away. There is little advantage like that in PvP, because PvP is all about time invested rolling PUGs and hoping you don't get matched up with the other faction's "A-Team" too many times. It's not like they had to do more work, they simply were fortunate enough to get those items after the upgrade.

Originally Posted by Drauk

I know getting even R13 is huge work, but it is way less man-hours spent than gearing in PvE.

You obviously haven't a fucking clue, I'm sorry. Do you raid BWL 7 days a week, 14 hours a day? No? Then please don't speak about time investment for high ranking PvP as if you actually know what you are talking about.

[Tolanin]

Originally Posted by kohl

Right. If Blizzard actually did what I just described, there would be a collosal uproar, and rightly so. Telling current Tier2 owners that "sorry, you have to go back to BWL, MC and Ony to collect your new set ALL OVER AGAIN" vs. just putting in a retro upgrade.
At the very least, it would be cake because those players would be geared up and already know the ropes of those zones. However, there would be much sour grapes over the fact that people coming into BWL *NOW* get the better stuff right away. There is little advantage like that in PvP, because PvP is all about time invested rolling PUGs and hoping you don't get matched up with the other faction's "A-Team" too many times. It's not like they had to do more work, they simply were fortunate enough to get those items after the upgrade.



You obviously haven't a fucking clue, I'm sorry. Do you raid BWL 7 days a week, 14 hours a day? No? Then please don't speak about time investment for high ranking PvP as if you actually know what you are talking about.

no its not apples and oranges unless since pvp will always pretty much be the same beast you think that the pvp sets should get always get retroactive upgrades.. the nature of the current system is that someone will always be getting fucked over when an upgrade comes but oh well... its even more retarded to give retrogrades to people.

And hell if they wanted to upgrade BWL to drop new fkin awesome retardedly powerful items instead of adding a new hard zone that i have to spend tons of money to learn, i would jump at it. So dont call this apples and oranges cause its not.

[Gauss]

Originally Posted by kohl

You obviously haven't a fucking clue, I'm sorry. Do you raid BWL 7 days a week, 14 hours a day? No? Then please don't speak about time investment for high ranking PvP as if you actually know what you are talking about.

I don't have any issue with your post other than this statement. It takes *more* man-hours (yes that's people multiplied by hours invested) to get tier 2 sets than it does for a group of 10 individuals in a pvp group shooting for GM/HW to get their sets. Obviously one requires more *individual effort* than the other, but the person you quoted is technically correct, even if he is wrong from a more practical standpoint.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Elerion

It's in the midde.

The difference lies in the fact that people who rank up now will get the better rewards by doing the exact same thing as the old R14's did.

The similarity lies in the fact that PvE people can't sit on their ass and have their current gear upgraded without doing anything to get it.

For people who already have their high end gear (PvE or PvP) there is no difference, work must be done to upgrade to max. For players who are working their way up the ladder (PvE or PvP) now, the effort needed to get the high end gear hasn't increased for PvP'ers, but it has done so for PvE'ers.

Blizzard obviously recognized this by making the armor auto-upgrade, but forcing you to rebuy the weapons. It's the middle way.

Thank you. You summed up the problem better than anyone else I've seen here.

Yes, I'm a High Warlord. Yes, I de-ranked down and am now Blood Guard or something because once you hit R14 there is no good reason to f*ck over the up-and-coming players by hanging out in the top standings.
Suggesting that players should have "hung around" at R12/13 just for this change is pure comedy.

There is a mage now on my server who is R13 and I assume going for R14. He is also in the resident uber guild who has Nef on farm status, so he can put together teams of geared up players to help him in his grind. When I did it, it was much earlier before people were farming BWL and as such, there wasn't really this kind of advantage by anyone on either side.
So the point is, if anything, current players have a chance to make their grind easier due to increasing gap of gear by pure PvPers vs. PvE'ers who PvP when they aren't raiding. Those players now have access to new weapons. I'm not going to bitch about it not being fair. What does bother me is that it's obviously a big gripe with players and yet there isn't a peep from Blizzard, EVER, in their own PvP forums.

[AngryDwarf]

Are they upgrading the blue sets as well or just the epic?

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Tolanin

no its not apples and oranges unless since pvp will always pretty much be the same beast you think that the pvp sets should get always get retroactive upgrades.. the nature of the current system is that someone will always be getting fucked over when an upgrade comes but oh well... its even more retarded to give retrogrades to people.

It's apples and oranges because when you described (getting free Nax stuff) is not the beef people have with the current PvP system.

New dungeon = new difficulty = new encounters = new armor. Logical. I get it.

Same old PvP = same time investment to R14 = new weapons? ??? Not the same.

Originally Posted by Tolanin

And hell if they wanted to upgrade BWL to drop new fkin awesome retardedly powerful items instead of adding a new hard zone that i have to spend tons of money to learn, i would jump at it. So dont call this apples and oranges cause its not.

I'm sure you WOULD jump at it. Who wouldn't? I'm sure people who are currently plowing their tractors in BWL wouldn't complain either as the have it on farm status.
There is no such comparison for PvP. Nothing about PvP ranking *ever* gets easier. It's the same grind. There is no way to speed up the process or lessen the amount of time invested, and that is the difference.

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by kohl

You obviously haven't a fucking clue, I'm sorry. Do you raid BWL 7 days a week, 14 hours a day? No? Then please don't speak about time investment for high ranking PvP as if you actually know what you are talking about.

Ofc im not raiding 7 days a week, 14 hours. However there is some guilds thats pretty close to that. Inner Sanctum raids 6 days a week (5-6 hours i guess) and they are goind with 7 days when 1.11 hits.
However, im raiding for 9 months now. And there is quite a lot of people who are raiding for 1.5 years. And we will continue to raid, while PvPers can do nothing and enjoy ongoing upgrades.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Gauss

I don't have any issue with your post other than this statement. It takes *more* man-hours (yes that's people multiplied by hours invested) to get tier 2 sets than it does for a group of 10 individuals in a pvp group shooting for GM/HW to get their sets. Obviously one requires more *individual effort* than the other, but the person you quoted is technically correct, even if he is wrong from a more practical standpoint.

Again, you can't directly compare the PvE system with the PvP system. Yes, it requires 40 players to get those items, but that is the crux of the issue with PvP vs. PvE. PvE is all about co-operation. PvP is all about individual effort; competing and beating people of your own faction. That time investment NEVER goes down, and it can't be spread over 39 other people.

Also, like I mentioned, PvE time investment goes down over time. It might have taken 40 people x 10 hours = 400 man hours to clear MC the first couple times through, but later it is done in 32 people x 3 hours = 96 man hours. See how that works?
In PvP there is no such relief. There is nothing along the lines of "Oh gee, we cleared (insert PvE instance) ... time to take a few days off and spend with the wife and kids". Talk to anyone who made R14 and they will tell you that is what eats at you after a couple months. There is no letting up. It doesn't get easier, it only gets harder... to the point that when you are in your last week or 2 of PvP, most people take time off work so they can guarantee their standing and not derank right before the end of their journey.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Drauk

Ofc im not raiding 7 days a week, 14 hours. However there is some guilds thats pretty close to that. Inner Sanctum raids 6 days a week (5-6 hours i guess) and they are goind with 7 days when 1.11 hits.
However, im raiding for 9 months now. And there is quite a lot of people who are raiding for 1.5 years. And we will continue to raid, while PvPers can do nothing and enjoy ongoing upgrades.

Exactly, but my point is that you are not FORCED to raid 12 hours a day, 7 days a week just for a shot at an upgrade. Raiding guilds have a time window during which they raid, and even if its raiding 6-7 days a week, individuals can take a day or two off without it crippling a guild's ability to raid. Plus as I mentioned, as you learn the encounters and put each boss in an instance on farm mode, it gets easier for the guild as a whole. Imagine if you never could put a boss on farm status; if every trip to BWL involved 10-20 wipes and after 4 months of killing Nef, it took you the same amount of time to clear the instance.
In PvP, you take a day or two off at R13 and you just ensured your deranking.

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by kohl

Talk to anyone who made R14 and they will tell you that is what eats at you after a couple months. There is no letting up. It doesn't get easier, it only gets harder... to the point that when you are in your last week or 2 of PvP, most people take time off work so they can guarantee their standing and not derank right before the end of their journey.

There is some crazy guy on my server who has 2 GMs characters (including the very first GM on the server) and is now ranking horde char to HW.
And its certainly easier next time for him. First of all, he pretty much created a PvP guild that worked to getting GMs to their members. They controlled all top 10 standings, because they were better than anybody. As far as i know his second char was getting standing 1 from the start, and his way to GM was much shorter that with first char.

[Teger]

The Hunter set pisses me off endlessly. It's like they finally realized that Spirit and Resistances and +% Hit eat up tons of points on our gear, and fix the Warlord set so it doesn't suck balls, but leave Striker's and DS alone. Why the fuck should I spend months gearing up for VASTLY inferior items (the difference between DS and new Warlord gear is hilarious) when I can just get in an honor farming team and rank up in a few weeks?

Today instead of going out and farming guild for learning C'thun I started PVPing, cause fuck it, I'd rather do roll PUGs than work to learn HARD bosses.

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by Teger

Today instead of going out and farming guild for learning C'thun I started PVPing, cause fuck it, I'd rather do roll PUGs than work to learn HARD bosses.

Good point btw. New PvP rewards are going to be some serious balance issues on servers where one faction isnt even farming Nef.

[Kalahad]

Yah retro would be GREAT. While we are at it upgrade my MC armor every time you release a new dungeon. I mean, I worked my ass off last february for it, why should I have go to spend more time to get better items. Looking at that healer mace/offhand, it is almost as good as the AQ healer staff, which makes me really go what the fuck? Soloable content should not be nearly as good as gear that requires you to gear up in lesser zones as a guild then progress through AQ.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Drauk

There is some crazy guy on my server who has 2 GMs characters (including the very first GM on the server) and is now ranking horde char to HW.
And its certainly easier next time for him. First of all, he pretty much created a PvP guild that worked to getting GMs to their members. They controlled all top 10 standings, because they were better than anybody. As far as i know his second char was getting standing 1 from the start, and his way to GM was much shorter that with first char.

It's a ladder system so it all depends on competition. However, there is a *minimal* amount of time it will take him to reach R14. My entire point is that they are two different systems. PvP requires constant time investment by each individual, while PvE's time investment is tied completely to the rate at which a guild raids.
Some guilds want to raid 7 days a week, another wants to raid 4 days. Both guilds can still acheive the best rewards the PvE system has to offer.

PvP does NOT allow this flexibility with time. Either you can invest the time required to rank up, or you either de-rank or simply stop ranking up.

I wish I had the answer to make it more manageable, but as long as Blizzard insists on tieing PvP Rank to strictly time invested, it will never change.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Teger

The Hunter set pisses me off endlessly. It's like they finally realized that Spirit and Resistances and +% Hit eat up tons of points on our gear, and fix the Warlord set so it doesn't suck balls, but leave Striker's and DS alone. Why the fuck should I spend months gearing up for VASTLY inferior items (the difference between DS and new Warlord gear is hilarious) when I can just get in an honor farming team and rank up in a few weeks?

Today instead of going out and farming guild for learning C'thun I started PVPing, cause fuck it, I'd rather do roll PUGs than work to learn HARD bosses.

You do that. What PvP rank do you have now? Come back after you spend 12 hours a day in BGs and keep us posted on your progress.