T3 Sets

[Sancus]

I'm no theory crafter, but I'm pretty sure a combat daggers (pve) specced rogue will rip shit up with that(again, I don't really know how much of a gain mages are getting, because I didn't look at the new talent trees, dont bite my head off if I'm wrong about 1.11)

If you were a theory crafter, you would know that at this point, Rogue melee damage is not scaling as fast as Mage spell damage is.

There is this continuing myth that Melee damage scales better than spell damage, but no actual math shows that at all.

how the hell do your rogues lose to mages on cthun?

I'll second this statement, however, I will note that I could easily see this happening for Fire mages on alliance. Judgement of Wisdom's broken level of mana recovery combined with rolling Ignites means that Alliance fire mages won't have major mana issues on this fight(unlike Horde ones), and their damage increases more than linearly over several mages. There is *nothing whatsoever* in the game that can even approach a squad of 5 Fire mages using rolling Ignites in a situation where aggro is irrelevant. Any other dps is simply a laughable joke. Unfortunately, 1.11 completely removes the ability to roll Ignites.

Another issue is strategy. Depending on what job you use each class to do, it can largely effect their ability to do damage. For example, if the rogues have a responsibility to deal with small eye tentacles on p1, then their melee damage will hurt a lot. However, if they are expected only to pour on the damage on the Eye of C'thun itself, and the rest of their groups are supposed to deal with the eye tentacles, then their damage will be much greater.

We allow Rogues basically free reign in p1 to focus on damaging the Eye, so their damage tends to be extremely high, much higher than Mages(unless flasked, then Mages outdamage rogues easily, and sure you can say "but that's flasked", however, there IS NO FLASK in the game that can improve rogue damage this way. The ability to use a consumable to massively boost your damage is an inherent advantage).

[Samus Aran]

Originally Posted by Neferata

It completely baffles me how often the advantage of being able to do your damage from 30+ yards away is overlooked.

It's not. Why do you think hunters exist?

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by Neferata

It completely baffles me how often the advantage of being able to do your damage from 30+ yards away is overlooked. Mages trade a little bit of potential damage output for the ability to do their damage from far away. In this trade they also gain a nice selection of AoE spells and quite a bit if utility. Sometimes mages will top the damage meters. Sometimes rogues will top the damage meters. It's called balance, and if any one class should be pissed at the current situation it should be rogues.

The ability to deal damage from range is not overlooked, but its not unique. Warlocks and especially hunters are easily overdamaging mages (pre-1.11 at least). And the explanation we given for that is exactly like yours - "mages are given unique utility (sheep) and aoe capabaility".
The problem is that in raids sheep is useless on all but 3 encounters (domo, hakkar and skeram). And "aoe capability" is grossly overestimated. Mages has 4 aoe spells, one is utterly useless (flamestrike), one used to require 15 pt in arcane and is point blank, one is point blank conus and has cd, and the last is channeled. Plus the whole issue with aoe spells scaling horribly.
This resulsts that mages feel underpowered in raid, because they trade damage for things with very limited raid usage. If we to follow this logic, than hunters should deal way less damage because they have tranq (that is usable in more encounters than sheep and aoe combined)

[Neferata]

Originally Posted by Drauk

The ability to deal damage from range is not overlooked, but its not unique. Warlocks and especially hunters are easily overdamaging mages (pre-1.11 at least). And the explanation we given for that is exactly like yours - "mages are given unique utility (sheep) and aoe capabaility".
The problem is that in raids sheep is useless on all but 3 encounters (domo, hakkar and skeram). And "aoe capability" is grossly overestimated.

Warlocks and hunters are "easily overdamaging mages"? Warlocks and hunters(especially alliance hunters) should definitely be competing for the top spots on the damage meters in many of the same situations in which a mage will, but "easily overdamaging mages" is pure exaggeration.

Originally Posted by Drauk

Mages has 4 aoe spells, one is utterly useless (flamestrike), one used to require 15 pt in arcane and is point blank, one is point blank conus and has cd, and the last is channeled. Plus the whole issue with aoe spells scaling horribly.

First of all, mages have up to 6 AoE spells available to them. Arcane Explosion, Frost Nova, Blizzard, Cone of Cold, Flamestrike, and Blastwave. Secondly, Flamestrike is definitely not "utterly useless."

Originally Posted by Drauk

This resulsts that mages feel underpowered in raid, because they trade damage for things with very limited raid usage. If we to follow this logic, than hunters should deal way less damage because they have tranq (that is usable in more encounters than sheep and aoe combined)

No, some mages feel underpowered in raids because they take posts like yours seriously. Oh, and did you really just say Tranquilizing Shot is used in more encounters than Polymorph and AoE spells combined? Let's see, raid encounters in which hunters use Tranq Shot; Magmadar, Flamegor, Chromaggus, and Princess Huhuran. Four. Raid encounters in which mages use Polymorph and/or AoE spells; Majordomo Executus, Prophet Skeram, Razorgore the Untamed, Ragnaros, Nefarian, Fankriss the Unyielding, Viscidus, and Ouro. Eight.

Those totals don't even take into account ZG or AQ20, or trash pulls, and guess which gets used more on trash pulls between AoE spells and Tranq Shot?

Do you even raid?

[Kuro]

Gnome bobble-head armor sets almost make me want to play WoW. I would definately flee a dreadnaught wearing gnome.

[Gryzx]

Surprised nobody has said anything on the T3 sets requiring AH junk to complete.

[Itzena]

I was just about to post a link: http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/news-...materials.html

[Ameraves Loyalheart]

I just started a new thread about that cause I didn't see it in here. OH, and this thread seems to have been derailed a bit. (shocking!)

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by Neferata

Warlocks and hunters are "easily overdamaging mages"? Warlocks and hunters(especially alliance hunters) should definitely be competing for the top spots on the damage meters in many of the same situations in which a mage will, but "easily overdamaging mages" is pure exaggeration.

Warlocks have roughly same base nuke as mages, but have other damage spells in addition to that. Hunters have excellent dps in the first place, plus they are not agro limited, thus topping on damage in agro sensetive fights.

First of all, mages have up to 6 AoE spells available to them. Arcane Explosion, Frost Nova, Blizzard, Cone of Cold, Flamestrike, and Blastwave. Secondly, Flamestrike is definitely not "utterly useless."

I didnt count FN since its CC spell, not damage. Blastwave is talented, and i would like to see an example of practical use for flamestrike.

Oh, and did you really just say Tranquilizing Shot is used in more encounters than Polymorph and AoE spells combined? Let's see, raid encounters in which hunters use Tranq Shot; Magmadar, Flamegor, Chromaggus, and Princess Huhuran. Four. Raid encounters in which mages use Polymorph and/or AoE spells; Majordomo Executus, Prophet Skeram, Razorgore the Untamed, Ragnaros, Nefarian, Fankriss the Unyielding, Viscidus, and Ouro. Eight.

Well, yes. I made an exaggaration, sorry. However AOE/poly isnt really necessary on Razor, Rag and Fankriss (boss himself, not trash clear). And Skeram, Razor, Rag, Nef, Fankriss and Ouro are possible without mages. You cant get Flamegor, Chrom and Huhu without hunters, and can only get Magmadar without them if raid is grossly overgeared for him.

Do you even raid?

Yes i do, and my remark about hunters and warlocks was based on my experience and watching DM on raids. However, it seems that different raid tend to have different classes on top for a whole lot of reasons, making it harder to compare objectively.

I didnt say i want mages to be end-of-all kings of damage or something like that. I just said that an answer we are "officialy" given to our issues (that is more than just damage) isnt really relevant is raid settings. And Blizzard futher proves that by changing their opinon on certain issues complelty (see rank 7 water, -threat talents)

[Sancus]

Warlocks have roughly same base nuke as mages, but have other damage spells in addition to that.

You don't understand how the game works. It doesn't matter how many damage spells you give a Warlock, they can only cast one at a time. Yes, even dots have casting time, at a minimum the 1.5s global cooldown.

Do you know WHY Warlocks have dots? It's not so they can "blatantly outdamage mages". It's because they NEED them to do good dps, because they have major mana issues that mages don't have. Once a Warlock uses up his whole mana pool, he needs to start casting Life Tap. Each time he casts Life Tap, he's using up 1.5s that the Mage next to him is using to cast a nuke. Even with Improved Lifetap, you only get enough mana to cast 1.3 Shadowbolts.

So basically, after your initial mana pool is exhausted, the casting time of Shadowbolt is increased by about 1.15 seconds(plus latency). This is why Warlocks who have a brain and expect to be competing with Mages at all(straight Shadowbolt spamming ones certainly do NOT compete with Mages on the majority of raid fights) use dots. A dot adds a high amount of damage for a short casting time, but most importantly, it's very mana efficient, which reduces the amount of Life Tapping you need to do.

Of course, the main problem with this is debuff slots. There are not enough debuff slots for more than one truly optimized dotting Warlock, on one target anyway. Such Warlocks vastly increase their damage when they have multiple targets, though, since DoTs are so powerful relative to their casting time, the only barrier to using them is how long it takes for them to deal all their damage. Essentially, they have a cooldown "on the target".

Mages, on the other hand, have mana gems, which increase their mana pool at no cost of casting time. Mage Armor + Arcane Meditation give you 45% regeneration in combat, also at no cost to casting time. Evocation can nearly refill your whole mana pool in 8 seconds, less than half the time it takes to Life Tap that much.The primary distinguishing factor that makes Mages the best PvE nukers in the game is their mana regen abilities.

Yes i do, and my remark about hunters and warlocks was based on my experience and watching DM on raids. However, it seems that different raid tend to have different classes on top for a whole lot of reasons, making it harder to compare objectively.

Watching DM on raids tells you more about the relative competence of your players than it tells you about how good their class is. You can really only compare classes with math. It's quite easy for a good mage to be in the top 5 on DM on the vast majority of fights. In fact, in 1.11 I'd go so far as to say that there is no hunter or warlock that could possibly beat me except on a multi-target(but non-AOE) fight, in which case the Warlock might be able to, or a fight that is far more aggro-sensitive than any existing fight, in which case the Hunter might be able to.

[Qalar-Drinal]

Sancus is right. With the talented agro reduction in fire and frost tree, and each subsequently addressing issues with each(fire getting help with mana consumption, frost getting a major boost in crit%), mages will be top of the DamageMeters again.

[Drauk]

Originally Posted by Sancus

Watching DM on raids tells you more about the relative competence of your players than it tells you about how good their class is. You can really only compare classes with math.
It's quite easy for a good mage to be in the top 5 on DM on the vast majority of fights.

Well, you have a point, but to build a reliable and working model of every class DPS isnt an easy task. I've only heard about reliable rogue model (only for combat swords and daggers). Havent heard about reliable hunter or warrior DPS calculator.
Thus, we are back to emperical data. On easy, "classical" enctounters mage combat is only so much complicated, if there is no need to eat gem or use evoc, only thing i can do better is to mash buttons faster . And if i see that hunter or rogue is higher than me, that means that he can do better dps.

In fact, in 1.11 I'd go so far as to say that there is no hunter or warlock that could possibly beat me except on a multi-target(but non-AOE) fight, in which case the Warlock might be able to, or a fight that is far more aggro-sensitive than any existing fight, in which case the Hunter might be able to.

I wont argue with that, talent review was actually good in its 2nd iteration. And once again ill repeat that my point isnt that mages should always dominate DMs. My point is that arguments that Blizzard is giving us for varios class issues is mostly irrelevant in raid settings.

[frott]

Originally Posted by Neferata

Exactly.

It completely baffles me how often the advantage of being able to do your damage from 30+ yards away is overlooked. Mages trade a little bit of potential damage output for the ability to do their damage from far away. In this trade they also gain a nice selection of AoE spells and quite a bit if utility. Sometimes mages will top the damage meters. Sometimes rogues will top the damage meters. It's called balance, and if any one class should be pissed at the current situation it should be rogues.

So basically the mage complaint is rogues out damage you, except for all those times that they don't, but those times don't count because the encounters are 'melee unfriendly'? Take this shit to the WoW forums.

Yeah, let's just ignore the abilities that melee have to get close / keep you close: because then you have a point. Let me guess, you only meant PVE?

[Tolanin]

Originally Posted by frott

Yeah, let's just ignore the abilities that melee have to get close / keep you close: because then you have a point. Let me guess, you only meant PVE?

since pve is what we were talkin about i think its a fairly good bet he meant pve...and any mage who has trouble with any of the melee classes is a complete fucking retard.

[Zinke]

Mages should beat all melee in pvp? Wait.. what? Rogues own mages. If any of my cooldowns, especially vanish or pvp trinket, are up, the mage is dead. Sprint or blind can often work too if I'm on the ball.

Have to get the jump on them, but that's true for 9/10 fights for a rogue in PVP. Assuming a good mage, Cheap shot open, SS maybe once but save some energy, do a 3-4 pt kidney shot with some energy left over as they will blink out of the kidney shot. If they poly me, that's fine. PVP trinket and/or sprint after it wears off. Gouge and re-stealth if possible. If not, like against a fire mage, you can often kill them through good footwork, kicks and another low 3-4 pt kidney shot. If they blink then don't poly and frost nova me when I get close, vanish and pwn.

If vanish is not up, when they frost nova, you are often still in range to blind right then. Especially if they nova-ed then ran parallel to you instead of directly away. Need to be anticipating the nova though. Should be able to gouge them in the 2 seconds before they can do anything after your free, as blind lasts 10 sec to nova's 8, run away and re-stealth to start a new cheap shot stun combo. They used blink, so this time you do a 5pt kidney shot and should finish them before they get out of it. Especially with the damage done earlier.

Now, if I don't get a jump on them, they own me all over the place. But, that's also true for a lot of classes that we're supposed to be good against. A good rogue learns how to pick their battles.