Vanguard E3 Coverage

[Etadanik]

Originally Posted by Cybsled

You illustrate the key point. Just because YOU choose not to partake in anything does not mean it's not there. That's like saying your college had no clubs, when in reality it had no clubs that you liked. It's a big difference, and one everyone going "rofl no wow community!" can't seem to understand.

Just because you choose to isolate yourself or you choose not to associate with "the noobs" does not mean it is some void. You arent some sun that warms the planets.

No, what it demonstrates is that there is no incentive for associating with the community. Like I said, I play EQ and WoW much the same way, and in EQ I felt part of a community. In WoW I did not. The point was to illustrate the difference, which you conveniently ignored.

I'm sure there is a community somewhere lost amidst the server. But it would be foolish to think that the WoW community on most servers is in any way comparable to what the EQ community was. That's the key point.

[Fammaden]

Most of the community in WoW happens in BG's or at the high end instances. Strath, Scholo, UBRS, DM. Places that take a bit of time and teamwork to complete and plenty of level 60's will be running through them over and over again.

[Faltigoth]

*edit* I missed something in the discussion and added nothing relevant, as Fammaden pointed out, so just editing this out. My apologies.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Faltigoth

When talking about community in WoW, does anyone think that the fact that so many pre-formed guilds came over from different games hampered the regular development of community?

When posting in a message board thread, do people ever think to read the thread and see what everyone else has said?

[forge]

Originally Posted by Oloh

How about a "hardcore" server with permadeath?

I'd resubscribe to WoW to play on a permadeath server. I've been wanting something more than just the normal mindless pvp. Die run back.. Die run back.. I wonder if this has been considered and how many people it would take to support a server like this.

Cybsled, I don't think it would matter about class balance since you can't pvp at low levels normally. At least what I call pvp. I leveled to 10 and ran my orc all the way to the nightelf area just to find out that sadly I couldn't attack a single elf. Unless you ment ffa pvp.. Which I'd still be cool with shrug.

I think a perma death server would have a bit more community once you got out of the noob zergling death area levels. Additionally getting any higher level items would probably give you the feeling of EQ again where it might have ment something. Who knows.. maybe its a horrible idea, I'd buy into it though.

[Cybsled]

No, what it demonstrates is that there is no incentive for associating with the community

For you perhaps, but as Famm pointed out, you usually see a pretty solid PVP-based community or level 60 instance running ones.

Even in EQ1, once people started hardcore raiding, you ended up pretty isolated from the server community. The only times you ever had interaction for the most part was via greifing competition or when you showed off in Ecom tunnels. Most people either soloed for xp or exclusively grouped with guildmates.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by forge

I'd resubscribe to WoW to play on a permadeath server. I've been wanting something more than just the normal mindless pvp. Die run back.. Die run back.. I wonder if this has been considered and how many people it would take to support a server like this.

Those newbie quests sure would be a bitch the 290th time you're doing them due to the 1200 horde waiting at the zone lines for redridge/duskwood/wetlands.

[Etadanik]

For you perhaps, but as Famm pointed out, you usually see a pretty solid PVP-based community or level 60 instance running ones.

Even in EQ1, once people started hardcore raiding, you ended up pretty isolated from the server community. The only times you ever had interaction for the most part was via greifing competition or when you showed off in Ecom tunnels. Most people either soloed for xp or exclusively grouped with guildmates.

Not true.

1. EQ world zones and dungeons were focal points of community interaction, because everything that you did affected everyone else, whether it be taking a camp or training to zone. Forget forced grouping (although I'm sure that helped) - the fact that you were affected by other people's actions meant that you quickly got to know who was who.

2. Before MMOs became mainstream, there was a particular geek culture associated with it that didn't go "wtf, noobster lolz." As most fans of other previously-niche genres will tell you, mass commercializaton *always* weakens the bounds of closely-knit, niche communities. Original EQ players felt bound by their eccentric, unique interests, and I saw alot of that early on when people would add you to their friends list simply after talking to your once or twice in a zone, and actually honor that list by speaking to people on it every time they logged on.

Perhaps you had a different experience in EQ, I don't know. What I do know is that WoW has neither of the aforementioned qualities (WoW Beta, on the other hand, *did* have #2, and I think that had alot to do with its better community) and to claim that they made no difference with regards to the weakness of the WoW community is simply ridiculous.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Cad

Those newbie quests sure would be a bitch the 290th time you're doing them due to the 1200 horde waiting at the zone lines for redridge/duskwood/wetlands.

I respectfully disagree. I dont think you will see anyone hanging out in the other "teams" turf. You could be a studd and kill 10 people, but it only takes one lucky crit from a higher lvl player to send you back to Durotar.

I think you will see the exact opposite, in fact. Horde will be hiding in Orgimarr and Crossroads forming full groups to run to instances. People will be loaded up on potions and resist enchants every chance you get. All of that gear with Agility and no stamina will be rotting for the most part. You better believe no one will group with anyone that has even the slightest hint of stupidity. Very few people will travel alone, and overland grinding will pretty much come to a stop. The areas on the "fringes" will truly be very dangerous.

For your hunter Cad, if you think a Horde character having a snow leapard from Loch Modan, or an Alliance character having a white lion now is a status symbol, imagine on a permadeath server.

You will almost never see the raid stuff fall and even gear from the higher level instances would be insanely powerful in a relative way. UBRS would probably be the "best" gear in the game and a blue from Zul'Gurub will be like a legendary.

I am also guessing that even high level players on horde and alliance would come to a relative peace, and that any 50+ PK would be server news.

For it to work, I would think you would have to except out battlegrounds from permadeath, or else no one will use them at all. They can just be a way to blow off steam and be reckless in an otherwise harsh world. You would have to remove the EXP from the quests in battlegrounds, then, so they cant be used for "safe" leveling.

I think there would definitely be enough support for 1 server. I think it would almost become like a MUD-like community with very few players, but with all of the players knowing the others on both teams.

/shrug, I'd play it full time, probably.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how the game fundamentally changed by introducing a very serious disincentive to death. I think it would probably be the closest that the MMOG world has to offer to a true pen and paper type experience.

[frott]

Originally Posted by Oloh

I respectfully disagree. I dont think you will see anyone hanging out in the other "teams" turf. You could be a studd and kill 10 people, but it only takes one lucky crit from a higher lvl player to send you back to Durotar.

I think you will see the exact opposite, in fact. Horde will be hiding in Orgimarr and Crossroads forming full groups to run to instances. People will be loaded up on potions and resist enchants every chance you get. All of that gear with Agility and no stamina will be rotting for the most part. You better believe no one will group with anyone that has even the slightest hint of stupidity. Very few people will travel alone, and overland grinding will pretty much come to a stop. The areas on the "fringes" will truly be very dangerous.

For your hunter Cad, if you think a Horde character having a snow leapard from Loch Modan, or an Alliance character having a white lion now is a status symbol, imagine on a permadeath server.

You will almost never see the raid stuff fall and even gear from the higher level instances would be insanely powerful in a relative way. UBRS would probably be the "best" gear in the game and a blue from Zul'Gurub will be like a legendary.

I am also guessing that even high level players on horde and alliance would come to a relative peace, and that any 50+ PK would be server news.

For it to work, I would think you would have to except out battlegrounds from permadeath, or else no one will use them at all. They can just be a way to blow off steam and be reckless in an otherwise harsh world. You would have to remove the EXP from the quests in battlegrounds, then, so they cant be used for "safe" leveling.

I think there would definitely be enough support for 1 server. I think it would almost become like a MUD-like community with very few players, but with all of the players knowing the others on both teams.

/shrug, I'd play it full time, probably.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how the game fundamentally changed by introducing a very serious disincentive to death. I think it would probably be the closest that the MMOG world has to offer to a true pen and paper type experience.

How about not "permadeath" but loss of a few levels? I wouldn't mind a server like this as well, until the first time I died at a high level.

[Cad]

Oloh - sounds fanciful, but I guarantee you'd beat your kids and smash your computer and cancel your account if your level 60 died to lag. Or some hunter in gadgetzan is fd/killing people. Every single person would be a rogue/druid for stealth.. etc.. it'd just be.. unworkable. Maybe if xp were accelerated by 20-30X so that you could hit 60 in a couple days. Otherwise there is just no way I'd waste 10+ days /played getting to 60 just to have pk groups erase it, lag erase it, buggy spawns or invisible mobs erase it, and the hatred for "dazed" would come to new highs.

There is a game for that out there, but I don't think it's WoW.

[Oloh]

Originally Posted by Cad

There is a game for that out there, but I don't think it's WoW.

I think WoW is the perfect game for it.

Dropping any amount of development money into it as a full time game would be very stupid. I'd never even suggest it. But, taking a few weeks, tinkering with the death mechanics, removing some EXP off of certain quests and launching an "alternative playground" type server for folks to mess with when they get bored of thier regular server seems, at least on the surface, to be something to consider.

To be honest, I dont think many people would ever get FD, let alone be playing with aggro at the Gaz guards, hehe. One resist and gratz, ding level 1. A lot of the "griefing" done in WoW currently is because the players dont value their own lives and can get a better "return on death."

The lag and stuff is a real problem, but I suspect that players will be so risk adverse that even a link death wouldnt kill them (ie, they would have 5 people at all times, doing stuff that any one of them could do solo, in an instance).

I think people that play it would play it like Super Mario Brothers. Let's see how far we get before we die, rather than trying to play it the same way WoW is currently played.

Originally Posted by forge

How about not "permadeath" but loss of a few levels? I wouldn't mind a server like this as well, until the first time I died at a high level.

Yeah, that is probably more realistic. Loss of one full level every time you die would probably have the same effect on the community, but not cause people to be completely risk adverse and ruin all fun from the game.

Edit: Might even be able to keep battlegrounds subject to the same death penalty this way, heh. Would turn into crazy tactical fights, rather than zerg fests.

[Istros]

Originally Posted by Oloh

Edit: Might even be able to keep battlegrounds subject to the same death penalty this way, heh. Would turn into crazy tactical fights, rather than zerg fests.

Sounds great, but why not remove battlegrounds altogether? They're the worst thing to happen to PvP ever anyhow, by turning a gaming experience that should be unpredictable and exciting into a monotonous grind.

[Hateyou]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Someone said earlier how they liked FFxi's community because they got invited into a guild based on their skill rather then just a random invite. Well guess what, your opinion of FFxi's community probably would have been vastly different if your 50~100 man EQ guild all migrated directly to FFxi and from day 1 you didn't need the rest of the server.

It's as simple as that really. You have people who come into WoW and join a pre-made mini-community and then bitch about the lack of the more server-wide community.

It's not as simple as that. I said in that exact same post that I tried playing WoW like I did FFXI and it was completely different. I didn't have my entire EQ guild merge in to FFXI, nor WoW. The community fucking_blows in WoW. It's as simple as that really.

[Cybsled]

Battlegrounds were great in that they let you PVP with special rulesets, as it were (CTF, hold the point, attacking a base). The problem is that they all but discouraged town fighting (hi2u DKs) and had very little in the way of meaningful world PVP. It sounds like that will change alot with TBC, since they are designing zones with world PVP in mind.