Vanguard E3 Coverage

[Soygen]

I'll tell you what it means. It means Brad played D&D with these people and gave them a job.

Is this a fact or did this come to you in your(obviously very disturbing) dreams?

Well, this thread is done and so am I. Good luck those who keep fighting the good fight.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

I could care less who is behing the design itself - the implementation is what I am talking about. Revamping and implementing everything under the sun as you go, 6 months out from release, is what Star Wars Galaxies did - and when they pulled the trigger, they kept revamping for the next 3 years on subscription revenue.

This design method sucks, because in the end, designers don't have a clue as to what system they are going to implement next as they keep having to revamp the older systems as well, which then starts a chain reaction of "holy fuck what the hell did we just make."

What you don't seem to understand is Raph Koster has a bad habit of saying "HEY LETS REDESIGN THIS!" and never completing the project or taking fucking forever to do it.

For example, the straw that broke the camel's back for me - Necromancy and Paladins in UO - after he announced the general rough draft of both, do you know how long they took to actually see the light of day? FIVE YEARS, five fucking years - after he quoted 3 months... (and note, he left UO at about the 2-3 year range - that's right, one of his promises wasn't fufilled until long after he left)

Brad on the other hand has missed anticipated dates by up to a month on occasion.

Let that sink in.... 5 years vs. 2 months (just giving an extra month in case there was something twice as bad as normal I forgot) - if the math was as simple as to be direct you could expect 1 month of Brad-time(tm) to be equivalent to 2 1/2 years of Koster-clockage(tm). Of course it's not that simple, but Brad delivers on stuff much quicker than Raph does.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

You mean like what Jeff Butler did with Luclin?

Wasn't all of Luclin, but yea alot of it was fubar - Luclin is a good example of what happens when you ignore the guidelines the leads tossed together too much.

Part of why Brad got frustrated and left to start Sigil if you didn't force a mental block.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

What you don't seem to understand is Raph Koster has a bad habit of saying "HEY LETS REDESIGN THIS!" and never completing the project or taking fucking forever to do it.

For example, the straw that broke the camel's back for me - Necromancy and Paladins in UO - after he announced the general rough draft of both, do you know how long they took to actually see the light of day? FIVE YEARS, five fucking years - after he quoted 3 months... (and note, he left UO at about the 2-3 year range - that's right, one of his promises wasn't fufilled until long after he left)

Brad on the other hand has missed anticipated dates by up to a month on occasion.

Let that sink in.... 5 years vs. 2 months (just giving an extra month in case there was something twice as bad as normal I forgot) - if the math was as simple as to be direct you could expect 1 month of Brad-time(tm) to be equivalent to 2 1/2 years of Koster-clockage(tm). Of course it's not that simple, but Brad delivers on stuff much quicker than Raph does.

I'll start by saying I agree with you that Raph Koster sucks.

With that said, 9 months for Vex Thal (After he left) 3 months for PoM after it was already sold. 6 months to finish the Sleeper script after it was already sold, and populate a loot table. I am only bringing those instances up not because I hate McQuaid for them, as I am sure some idiot that doesn't read this reply will post on about, but because your time frames are a wee bit off and a little more than "2 months" given his history. Granted that history was a long time ago, but it is still there, and the only thing you have to go on at the moment.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Digits

...a camp of Pigfucker banditspiders...

Give this man a developer position - if there's a type of spider no one could ever get tired of killing its a Pigfucker Banditspider.

Clearly it would reduce spider related MMO complaints by a full 80%.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

Part of why Brad got frustrated and left to start Sigil if you didn't force a mental block.

Not.

Luclin is a good example of what happens when you ignore the guidelines the leads tossed together too much.

The producer was Butler. He was in charge of that project, and it went to shit under his watch. Now he is doing the same thing with Vanguard.

When I heard McQuaid was going to start his own company, I got excited. When I saw Butler was headed over as well, well shit, you may as well just take Koster at that point.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

I'll start by saying I agree with you that Raph Koster sucks.

With that said, 9 months for Vex Thal (After he left) 3 months for PoM after it was already sold. 6 months to finish the Sleeper script after it was already sold, and populate a loot table. I am only bringing those instances up not because I hate McQuaid for them, as I am sure some idiot that doesn't read this reply will post on about, but because your time frames are a wee bit off and a little more than "2 months" given his history. Granted that history was a long time ago, but it is still there, and the only thing you have to go on at the moment.

Nowhere did Brad promise that currently unachievable, locked content was ready right out of the box any more than the WoW folks promised that Emerald Dream, AQ, and many other zones would be available in WoW at launch.... its been over a year for some of those zones that have files on your machine to be finished, WHERE'S THE RAGE?

Developers play catch-up on MMO's - you don't seem to find it an issue with WoW, but you find an issue with EQ1 doing it - hypocritical much?

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Not.

The producer was Butler. He was in charge of that project, and it went to shit under his watch. Now he is doing the same thing with Vanguard.

When I heard McQuaid was going to start his own company, I got excited. When I saw Butler was headed over as well, well shit, you may as well just take Koster at that point.

And Butler did excellent work under Brad before he left - some people are better in some positions than others.

Butler is a good example of middle-management material - which is precisely what he is at Sigil.

[Goliath]

LOL @ Box Art. Looks like the rogue is trying to look at the front girls bizness.

[gilbertgbert]

WoW (not an acronym..) I'm fucking bored to fucking DEATH of all your crap/countercrap ..... PLEASE....can we get some solid negative/positive info out of this thread or is it destined to stagnate like this forever????

[Grabbit Allworth]

I think it's funny that some of you are overemphasizing and getting bent out of shape over a few designer portfolios.

Not everyone on a development team is a creative genius. Every company has their equivalent to towel boys/girls. I'm not assuming I know what each person at Sigil does, but it doesn't take formal education and/or years of experience to perform a lot of the more mundane tasks (until they get the experience to move on) that go along with crafting an MMO. If someone with little to no experience was a lead or senior designer then that might be cause for concern, but seriously. Even if Brad did hire a few of his D&D buddies to place some mobs or plant some trees that follow a design guideline, who cares?

When I went to the first EQ Summit It was skirted around that I should apply for a job on the Dev team (something I couldn't because my wife refused to move to California. A situation which has now changed, but I highly doubt the opportunity is still available =/) and guess how much experience and education I have in making MMO's or games period? Zero. Then why was I being flirted with about a job in the industry? Because I intimately understood the games mechanics and had enough creativity to offer something to the team. If I had been hired, what do you think I would have been doing? Writing design documents? Ha. I'd be getting coffee.

Take Elidroth (now a designer for Sigil) for example. I was guilded with him for a bit in EQ. The guy had zero experience making MMO's but was hardcore raider and a smart guy. To say the least when he told me at a Vegas Fan Faire that he had an interview with Brad I was shocked, but a few months later I saw he had been hired.

The point is, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

[Laerazi]

Originally Posted by Goliath

LOL @ Box Art. Looks like the rogue is trying to look at the front girls bizness.

lol, I went back and looked and burst out laughing.

Edit : Added 1UP Blog Impressions of Jeff Green

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

Nowhere did Brad promise that currently unachievable, locked content was ready right out of the box any more than the WoW folks promised that Emerald Dream, AQ, and many other zones would be available in WoW at launch.... its been over a year for some of those zones that have files on your machine to be finished, WHERE'S THE RAGE?

Wow isn't charging $29.99 for a box listing/marketing zones that are available when you purchase said game, only to have them finish on subscription. Don't fucking open up this can of worms again - because you'll get verbally beat down by everyone here that agrees there is a huge fucking difference.

Developers play catch-up on MMO's - you don't seem to find it an issue with WoW, but you find an issue with EQ1 doing it - hypocritical much?

Again, in my eyes there is a BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE in charging an expansion fee, and content downloaded for free. Had the Hole shipped incomplete, I wouldn't have given a shit. Had SolTemple had broken quest drops because the loot table wasn't finished, I would not have given a shit.

Learn to tell the God Damn difference.

If Blizzard ships Burning Crusade 60% complete, let me know and I will bash them to kingdom come.

[Etadanik]

Utnayan, there's a pattern to your madness.

You're after Vanguard for the same reason you were after EQ2 before you were laughed off of the boards after EQ2 took a 180 for the better (the results of which I'm sure you attribute to yourself, as well). You disagree - not with the game design - but with the *business* practice of the companies in question on one hand and the *individuals* of the company on the other. I'm not sure where exactly this hate comes from, but I reckon it has either something to do with your personal mistreatment by one of these companies or it's derived from the your contacts from within the company who are equally dissatisfied. Or maybe it's because you were a diehard Star Wars fanboy and the atrocity of the SWG experience became the Moby Dick of your existence. I'm not going to psychoanalyze you.

Merely to pose the question: why aren't you after WoW, which by all measures has gone off on the deep end and become a worse game than EQ2? Why aren't you criticizing Lineage 2? Where's your zealotry with regards to D&D Online or LOTR Online? Wheres the hate for City of Heroes / City of Villains? Wheres the smarty remarks about the lack of player population in Eve and Shadowbane? Where were you when Horizons and Asheron's Call 2 bombed? When Anarchy Online was a piece of buggy shit upon release?

Your criticism is concentrated - nay, focused - on two companies, both of which have a common origin as each partook in the creation and/or maintenance of EQ. Compared to the massive shit pile that comprises the rest of the MMORPG market, your virulent attempt to defame their relatively successful MMOs screams bias. Your endless stream of scathing comments have never gone far from the arch-villains you see lording it over these two companies. You have an obsessive "insider's" knowledge of the internal workings of not only the companies but also the individuals who are there - I'd say you practically work there, except that there are other explanations for why you know. Still, my point stands: it's a rather narrow critique that you've chosen to entertain, and there must be a reason for that. And it's not the idealistic defense of MMORPGs that you've been trying to fool us with, but a personal vendetta.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Etadanik

You're after Vanguard for the same reason you were after EQ2 before you were laughed off of the boards after EQ2 took a 180 for the better

Laughed off the boards? EQ2 is still not a very good game. The only time I read anything about it here is when there is a new expansion to sell. Other than that, I see people hop on the hype train, and then tail off into space until the next EQ2 expansion thread hits. It's like marketing clockwork.

EQ2 has improved, yes. It is more solo friendly. Group XP debt is gone. But there is a LONG way to go. Loot means jack shit, upper end raid game loot means nothing. Armor all looks the same, as do weapons. Animations are god awful, and the game still runs like shit on 50% of the machines out there, and some of those machines are nothing to scoff at. With that said, SOE seems to have improved. I put that at the hands of Hartsman. Smedley told me that they only intend from here on out to concentrate on one expansion per year for quality reasons. I am willing to see what happens and give them a chance to redeem themselves, like I have always said I would if they admitted to their mistakes. It's the people that can't, those are the shitbags I have a problem with.

You disagree - not with the game design - but with the *business* practice of the companies in question on one hand and the *individuals* of the company on the other. I'm not sure where exactly this hate comes from, but I reckon it has either something to do with your personal mistreatment by one of these companies or it's derived from the your contacts from within the company who are equally dissatisfied.

Or, it comes from the fact that it is my pet peeve in life to see these types of business practices to keep going on. Over and over. Never ending. Peter Molyneux style hype, with Raph Koster output, and seeing people get taken advantage of when it comes to losing their cash. Sure - you know what? It isn't my decision on what they spend their money on. But I still get pissed off when I know some kid out there is saving his allowance to buy a game based on everything they have heard, only to get it home and realize it is a shell of what was advertised. If you think it is anything more than that, you are delusional.

Or maybe it's because you were a diehard Star Wars fanboy and the atrocity of the SWG experience became the Moby Dick of your existence.

Or maybe this was the start of keeping people under NDA to not talk about the obvious shit the game was because it would hurt their pre press hype. I think if you could roll back the clock back to when this game was released, and what people know about it now, you wouldn't have had any people buy it - and that would have been a nice fuck you to the people trying to hide their obvious lack of product behind an NDA while at the same time having no problem hyping anything that is positive.

I went through the same shit with SWG as I am now with Vanguard. IGN vault poster fanboi galore hatred with idiotic comments while deflecting common sense like, "It's BETA!" and "The systems... ITS BETA" And the "You never hear anyone breaking NDA saying anything good about it because they want to keep playing blah blah blah. Same shit, different game.

In the end, I was right about SWG. And I'll be right about Vanguard. If I get one person to think about the situation the game is in to think twice about spending their cash on this shit, then that is good enough for me.

Merely to pose the question: why aren't you after WoW, which by all measures has gone off on the deep end and become a worse game than EQ2?

You really are fucking delusional.

Why aren't you criticizing Lineage 2?

Did Lineage 2 release an unfinished game and charge money for 50% complete expansions?

Where's your zealotry with regards to D&D Online or LOTR Online?

I do not see their developers coming on board and playing the spin game in regards to their products. Do you?

Wheres the hate for City of Heroes / City of Villains?

Did they ever release unfinished content and charge the player for it?

Where's the smarty remarks about the lack of player population in Eve and Shadowbane?

Eve Online actually has a good sized player base for it's niche title. I see developers on CCP with humility, they can admit mistakes, are communicative about it, and do not try to hide those mistakes. They also give realistic goals and timeframes, and have yet to hype something they could not follow through on, or bait people with subscription revenue.

Where were you when Horizons and Asheron's Call 2 bombed? When Anarchy Online was a piece of buggy shit upon release?

Oh I was there. Trust me. Especially during Anarchy Online.

Your criticism is concentrated - nay, focused - on two companies, both of which have a common origin as each partook in the creation and/or maintenance of EQ.

Wallah. What do you know, after all this is a fucking Vanguard thread.

Compared to the massive shit pile that comprises the rest of the MMORPG market, your virulent attempt to defame their relatively successful MMOs screams bias.

EQ2 was a pile of shit for a year. As far as I am concerned, it is never going to recover fully, no matter how good they try and make it - which still relates to a lot of conjecture and shilled out opinion on a game in which you always see people talking about how great it is, but never stating the reasons WHY.

You have an obsessive "insider's" knowledge of the internal workings of not only the companies but also the individuals who are there - I'd say you practically work there, except that there are other explanations for why you know.

I just study people behind MMORPG's, and the games themselves. It is a hobby. And I like to know who to flame when the shit hits the fan, so I can watch them if they move to another company to expect the same type of product. The game company isn't behind the game anymore, it's the people at that company. Much like Vaclav would do if Raph Koster got hired by another company he had his eye on.

Still, my point stands: it's a rather narrow critique that you've chosen to entertain, and there must be a reason for that. And it's not the idealistic defense of MMORPGs that you've been trying to fool us with, but a personal vendetta.

Sorry, I wish I had a personal vendetta. It's for the defense of MMORPG's, and the utter shit treatment consumers get in this market - from these two companies at the time, because frankly, and no one with a pulse can disagree, are responsible for some of the biggest bullshit business ethics questions to hit this genre in the last 6 years.

You let me know when World of Warcraft's expansion comes out 60% complete, banking on subscription revenue to complete the end game raid zone, and I will bash the living shit out of them for you as well.

The only bias I hold is for companies that continually disregard ethics time and time again for the sake of a buck. You and others may have come to accept it, but that doesn't mean that I cannot bash the living shit out of it, and call it to the attention of a forum if I so well desire to, because you know what?

I can.

And I will.