Vanguard E3 Coverage

[Grabbit Allworth]

Ok.... I can't hold my tongue any longer. This bashing bs is getting out of hand.

I'm not in beta, but I have "at will" access to the game. Sorry Brad =/...It's really too bad that I had to go through such measures to be able to help beta VG, because I'm interested in actually helping VG become the game I know it can be instead of just using beta as a chance to preview it.

Vanguard IS a good game with the potential to be a great game (and I believe it will be). I've played it. I like it A LOT, and I it's something I'll be buying on ship day. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a LONG way to go, because it does. Will it be ready by November? I really don't know, but there are 2 things I am positive of. 1. It won't ship until it's ready, and 2. Once it's ready, it will be fantastic. Will it be the messiah or cure for aids that a lot of people are expecting? A game like that doesn't exist.

Sigil aquiring the rights to VG is the best thing that could have ever happened to that project. Now, instead of looking over his shoulder and being pressured into an early release by corporate asshats he can actually do what's necessary to realize his dream and make a game that will be enjoyable by his target audience. Me being one of them.

You see people have become disillusioned as to what "beta" really means. More companies than not, only open up betas when their product is close to finished or use them as a mass drag net to catch obscure, stress related, or malevolent bugs. For a lot companies, a "beta" is just free advertising.

Vanguard is truly in a beta state. The only thing wrong with the game is that it's just not done. It's blatantly obvious from the first time you log in that the polish hasn't gone on, much less the wax. Mechanics, animations, quests, features, combat, tradeskills, etc are being refined, tuned, and sometimes replaced entirely. Hi, it's a real beta, imagine that. I know some of you will argue that this close to ship completely replacing a system or mechanic is a recipe for disaster, but I couldn't disagree more. Instead of getting in to a lengthy debate over game design, I'll just say those of you who would see those events like a bad omen are just either ignorant of the development process or if you do happen to know a bit about it, are just making moutains out of mole hills.

There's a huge difference between badly implemented or poorly designed and being unfinished. Vanguard is just not finished. It's as simple as that.

I will say this though there are a lot of things I do hope Vanguard will "borrow" from other MMO's. My biggest complaint with VG in my experience, is the damn UI. Again, it's obviously not done, but heh, it's painful for me.

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

If you read carefully, it said she gained a life's passion from MMORPG's by playing 30 minutes of Star Wars Galaxies. I would rather see a game designed by Donald Duck than someone who decided their life's work was going to be altered by Star Wars Galaxies of all games. But why stop with that. Since when does being a GM in a paper D&D game give someone experience in creating content and itemization in an MMORPG?

Kiss some ass, get a job. Maybe it will work for Jait.

Here is some awesome experience coming to the table.

Wonder how that interview went:

"Tell me Derek about your gaming knowledge"

"I played River Raid, and Shuttle. I knew I was going to make great games when I knew I could open the pod bay doors on the space shuttle with the Black and White switch on my 2600 console. I knew that was revolutionary. Oh, and I know 5 of your staff"

"Hired. Butler, schedule this guy on our new Vex Thal type end game zone. Sounds like the perfect guy for itemization."

Another Atari winner.

What a great resume.

Maybe we'll see a mushroom level with Kamakazii turtles.

Something is starting to hit me with all these Atari/D&D clones. I cannot place my finger on it.

"Tell us about your background, Daniel"

"I've been playing games for as long as I can remember."

....

"UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT B A START!"

"Bill... Get this guy a desk. That's 11 buttons he pushed before he got into the game. He sounds perfect for trade skills."

I'd say everyone here has post release testing experience. Especially with Brad's previous products.

Utnayan goes a bit overboard sometimes, but his somewhat amusing assessment of the "Game Design Team" seems appropriate considering the information presented in their bios. They really should add more concrete info to their bios to let people know what kind of experience the design team has in MMOGs.

Honestly "Played SWG and ran a D+D campaign" at face value translates to "doesnt know shit about the genre". Tabletop D+D has about as much to do with MMOGs as it does with Quake3 Arena. Stuff that doesnt exist or is a non-issue in table D+D (or the vast majority of single player CRPGs) and this list is far from exhaustive:

- mudflation
- instancing vs. non-instancing issues
- any form of aggro system
- damage/delay system issues
- weapon/skill speed normalization
- mana/rage/energy regen
- class balance with regard to PVE and PVP
- racial skill balance with regard to PVE and PVP
- in most D+D campaigns PVP doesnt even exist
- solo / group / raid dynamics (raids dont really exist at all for that matter)
- melee vs. caster itemization and progression
- the requirement for most abilities to scale with item progression
- risk vs reward
- crafting (well maybe in some campaigns, but nobody I ever table-top gamed with wanted to be a crafter)
- griefing
- farmers/Ebay
- no-drop/BOP
- population / faction imbalance issues

I would have a LOT more faith every one of their bios said something like "Jim had a L50 RR8 Spiritmaster in DOAC, a Level 70 400AA Shaman in EQ, and Level 60 NE Priest in WoW". Really, unless you have maxed out characters in a good 2-3 MMOGs you have no business designing content for one. If you haven't maxed out characters in multiple MMOGs can you even say you are a fan of the genre?

[gilbertgbert]

Originally Posted by Grabbit Allworth

STUFF that didn't quite deliver

Soooo nearly interesting... please....expand.

[Utnayan]

Hi, it's a real beta, imagine that. I know some of you will argue that this close to ship completely replacing a system or mechanic is a recipe for disaster, but I couldn't disagree more.

Please tell me about the outstanding results Star Wars Galaxies had with this tactic.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Froofy-D

Utnayan goes a bit overboard sometimes, but his somewhat amusing assessment of the "Game Design Team" seems appropriate considering the information presented in their bios. They really should add more concrete info to their bios to let people know what kind of experience the design team has in MMOGs.

Honestly "Played SWG and ran a D+D campaign" at face value translates to "doesnt know shit about the genre". Tabletop D+D has about as much to do with MMOGs as it does with Quake3 Arena. Stuff that doesnt exist or is a non-issue in table D+D (or the vast majority of single player CRPGs) and this list is far from exhaustive:

- mudflation
- instancing vs. non-instancing issues
- damage/delay system issues
- weapon/skill speed normalization
- mana/rage/energy regen
- class balance with regard to PVE and PVP
- in most campaigns PVP doesnt even exist
- solo / group / raid dynamics (raids dont really exist at all for that matter)
- melee vs. caster itemization and progression
- the requirement for most abilities to scale with item progression
- risk vs reward
- crafting (well maybe in some campaigns, but nobody I ever table-top gamed with wanted to be a crafter)
- griefing
- farmers/Ebay
- no-drop/BOP

I would have a LOT more faith every one of their bios said something like "Jim had a L50 RR8 Spiritmaster in DOAC, a Level 70 400AA Shaman in EQ, and Level 60 NE Priest in WoW". Really, unless you have maxed out characters in a good 2-3 MMOGs you have no business designing content for one.

Yes, because Tigule and Foror have done such an amazing job with their participation.

Fact remains, the people who think they have a fucking clue about what it takes to make this stuff are the people who absolutely have no fucking clue in reality.

In alot of ways the talents a developer needs for a LARGE hunk is alot like a D&D campaign (And this doesn't come from out of my ass - this comes from statements from many prominent MMO/RPG genre folks - even one I dislike Raph Koster) - the development leads need to know the ins and outs of the specifics to write their world, all the skeleton to the system - like the core books for a pen and paper system.

All the lesser (AKA assosciate) developers need is to follow the skeleton that was set up for them - which includes vague guidelines for monster and item stats. Much like PNP DM writing a campaign with the aid of a Monster Manual and DMG.

It's done like this so you have a structure and continuity while each person is given creativity freedom in what they do - also helps keep a good product while maintaining sanity.

[Digits]

I decided to move on with my character to a new hotspot, and was pleasently surprised by it. My FPS shot up by 100 percent and there was actual, though way too limited, content to level up on. It was actually enjoyable, and it was the first time that my comp didn't stagger as I moved throughout the wilderness.

Why am I saying this? Well, it's simple. The more I play the game the more I find myself enjoying it, despite it's rough and bugged state. In a few days I'll be going through one of the highest rated zones, and sometime after that I hope to start testing the VG version of Unrest. I'm glad I gave it another chance after putting myself through hell week testing the BC area. BTW Brad, the BC area fucking blows. Please do not simply refine what you have right now, because it's not a good enough basis for an introduction.

But, hey, I heard you guys read a press report so obviously you're the experts. I mean, you are in no way associated with Microsft, Sigil, SOE, the fucking game, so you guys are the true beta testers and should be the ones giving it a passing or failing grade.

PS. Shut the fuck up.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

.

What does GMing a D&D campaign or desiging a D&D Campaign in a pen and paper world have ANYTHING to do with the issues Froofy mentioned in MMORPG's that MUST be learned before giving them free reign to actually design world quests, rewards, loot tables, and progression techniques in an ongoing mudlfating MMORPG world?

Jack shit.

I'll tell you what it means. It means Brad played D&D with these people and gave them a job.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Please tell me about the outstanding results Star Wars Galaxies had with this tactic.

Comparing Raph Koster with Brad McQuaid is like comparing the dude from Mask (Cher one, not Jim Carey) to well, anyone in a beauty contest.

Raph Koster is the only creature in reality with a death touch.

[Skars]

Predicting 10 more pages of Everyone vs Ut while nobody quotes Digits last post.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

Comparing Raph Koster with Brad McQuaid is like comparing the dude from Mask (Cher one, not Jim Carey) to well, anyone in a beauty contest.

Raph Koster is the only creature in reality with a death touch.

I could care less who is behing the design itself - the implementation is what I am talking about. Revamping and implementing everything under the sun as you go, 6 months out from release, is what Star Wars Galaxies did - and when they pulled the trigger, they kept revamping for the next 3 years on subscription revenue.

This design method sucks, because in the end, designers don't have a clue as to what system they are going to implement next as they keep having to revamp the older systems as well, which then starts a chain reaction of "holy fuck what the hell did we just make."

[Spare Oom and War Drobe]

Originally Posted by Digits

I decided to move on with my character to a new hotspot, and was pleasently surprised by it. My FPS shot up by 100 percent and there was actual, though way too limited, content to level up on. It was actually enjoyable, and it was the first time that my comp didn't stagger as I moved throughout the wilderness.

Why am I saying this? Well, it's simple. The more I play the game the more I find myself enjoying it, despite it's rough and bugged state. In a few days I'll be going through one of the highest rated zones, and sometime after that I hope to start testing the VG version of Unrest. I'm glad I gave it another chance after putting myself through hell week testing the BC area. BTW Brad, the BC area fucking blows. Please do not simply refine what you have right now, because it's not a good enough basis for an introduction.

But, hey, I heard you guys read a press report so obviously you're the experts. I mean, you are in no way associated with Microsft, Sigil, SOE, the fucking game, so you guys are the true beta testers and should be the ones giving it a passing or failing grade.

PS. Shut the fuck up.

wrong
All this post said was: VG has bad zone design. Grabbit's only big contribution was saying some game mechanics are not good enough to implement. These are serious problems in “game design”. It’s not the same as having poor optimization or bad textures or a slow frame rate.
Say I built a very unstable poor quality website for a client, but fixed all the problems he asked for after my deadline... ok so the website works fine now, but that only implies I’ll have similar problems with future work.
Obviously, the guys making VG have had a lot of experience so I figured they wouldn’t have these kinds of issues. If they do clear it up and prove all the BS flying around wrong I will be the first welcome the changes and hope for a good release.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

What does GMing a D&D campaign or desiging a D&D Campaign in a pen and paper world have ANYTHING to do with the issues Froofy mentioned in MMORPG's that MUST be learned before giving them free reign to actually design world quests, rewards, loot tables, and progression techniques in an ongoing mudlfating MMORPG world?

Jack shit.

I'll tell you what it means. It means Brad played D&D with these people and gave them a job.

Uhm - read the first paragraph where he started his entire thought "We need people with MMO experience not people that played SWG or DM'ed a campaign"...

And fact remains ASSOSCIATE DEVELOPERS have guidelines to follow - you know ilevels in WoW?

That's the WoW equivalent of what I'm talking about, practically EVERY MMO follows that model where LEAD DEVELOPERS say "Assosciate Developer #1, design this area this week *marks of a section of map on a wall printout* - our target level range for this area is Level 20 - you'll see in your dev cheatsheets that we want mobs and loot in the area to fit into certain constraints for this level range - Bob down the hall was working on a few quests I'd like to chain into your section for later parts as well"

Then after the entire area is done, the Lead Dev makes a pass over it and polishes the rough edges or any oddities that they're not sure of.

You do not just go "Ok everybody, go make stuff today - I hope it's great!" with no fucking direction like you idiots seem to think works.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

You do not just go "Ok everybody, go make stuff today - I hope it's great!" with no fucking direction like you idiots seem to think works.

You mean like what Jeff Butler did with Luclin?

[Skars]

Originally Posted by Spare Oom and War Drobe

wrong

Way to spoil my prediction.

[Digits]

Originally Posted by Spare Oom and War Drobe

wrong
All this post said was: VG has bad zone design. Grabbit's only big contribution was saying some game mechanics are not good enough to implement. These are serious problems in “game design”. It’s not the same as having poor optimization or bad textures or a slow frame rate.
Say I built a very unstable poor quality website for a client, but fixed all the problems he asked for after my deadline... ok so the website works fine now, but that only implies I’ll have similar problems with future work.
Obviously, the guys making VG have had a lot of experience so I figured they wouldn’t have these kinds of issues. If they do clear it up and prove all the BS flying around wrong I will be the first welcome the changes and hope for a good release.

Amazingly you added content to your post after realizing your intial one was retarded. Where did I say the zones, aside from BC and even then, were poorly designed? I said they lacked direction, the zone themselves are fine, and the direction does seem to be getting better. In the case of Tursh the zone only has the bare minimum of quests and overland population to get solo'ers by from around levels 6-10, where you are then set out to new areas. The zones would be fine if more quests were introduced along with a few overland camps to compliment the mini dungeons in the area.

Are you trying to tell me that they failed at game design because there isn't a camp of Pigfucker banditspiders that I can kill for 15 minutes when I want to solo in a newbie area? Did you just say I was wrong in saying the game isn't as DOA as people -want- to think it is based on my own fucking post which states the opposite? It's not like you're even in beta.

From now on, when I'm in a thread you no longer get to post in it.