SoE to publish Vanguard

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by GrobbeeTrull

I think you fail to see the one important part of this "volatile" game known as WoW.

It's paid for. Whatever bank loan or corporate costs associated with development have been paid back God knows how many times over with it's resounding success. So the business model proved to be solid, it's pure profit from here out and things are smooth sailing. Even if WoW were to drop to 500,000, guess what - it's profit.

Really depends on the operating costs - their userbase has expanded astronomically - those new facilities, staff, and computers all cost them serious amounts of cash.

On SOE's model they were making about $5/mo per sub IIRC from an ancient interview - and that was without ever having to invest in another data center, much hardware, and generally decreasing staff sizes.

On the contrast you've had a frightening number of servers set up - at least 4 data centers (EU, Asia, 2 more in the US - probably some others) built and staffed, replacing most of the servers across the entire network, with an investment backlog and the owning interest in the company being Vivendi who was in the red by many millions.

They're probably making decent money considering all that, don't get me wrong - but the costs involved in it's rapid expansion have got to be mind-boggling, I'd be unsure of hazarding a guess if they've paid off their investment capital yet without knowing how large of an investment they took to start it though.

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

Really Dumar? How have what you said contradict anything of what I've said? The core systems are there and are working - it's mostly fleshing out things that complaints have been arising from - unless there's something I've missed. (as mentioned in my asking for "U-Turn ahead!" issues before - as of yet unanswered)

I was condemning the people that expect a beta to be a completely fleshed out product already - which is false for MOST of the entertainment industry. That is the incompleteness I was referring to. (For those in a non-entertainment related programming field - as many of you seem to be - compare it to a DB you're setting up, the framework of the DB is there and working but most of the fields are empty - that's quite often considered a beta stage, is it not? It's not completely workable, but it needs alot more stuff to be complete)

I was under the impression they are redesigning and changing core systems of the game. You can argue semantics of redesigning and 'fleshing things out', and I'm not sure which they're really doing because I'm not in beta (alpha?), but if you're taking the systems, redesigning how they work, and sticking them back in a very different state than the original, then this would be alpha, even moreso if this happens with more than one system. I believe Utnayan pointed it out earlier, but this seems eerily similar to SWG from an outside point of view.

You cannot design huge software systems this way. It just doesn't work. You can't call a design phase a 'beta' and put in numerous systems to 'see how they work' and test the waters. There is sort of a methodology for this type of development (similar to rapid prototyping), but this type of method does NOT usually work with huge complex systems like this. Because you really get lost in a huge complex mess of tons of systems you're 'testing out' (or like you said, 'need fleshed out') and you can't really test anything of value. You're testing the relationships of incomplete systems, and it's hard to tell how much effect one incomplete system has on another.

Doing this kind of development is dangerous, such that your product more than likely will be a jumble of maybe a few complete systems, incomplete ones, and a few competely broken ones.

You have to have completed systems (by complete I mean design, not bugs) to test them in an environment where they all influence each other. Otherwise you get SWG.

The issue here is that while it is technically possible to launch a good product using this type of dev method, the odds are it won't happen. I want VG to succeed, but any rational person can look at the whole picture and see where it's more than likely headed.

[Agraza]

I read somewhere that this kind of thing was occurring to Tabula Rasa as Garriott couldn't settle on several mechanics of the game. To be more specific, what I read claimed he changed things constantly prior to their completion, and many members of the design team left. I have no clue how true that is either since I don't follow the game, and I can't find where I got it from.

I want to say "add them incompletely and roll", but I've complained in the past about half-assed designs. This wait is frustrating, and any news that isn't another milestone just reminds us of the snail's pace to gold.

[Itzena]

Lord British (et al) did the sane thing with Tabula Rasa though: They made an announcement a while back saying "Sorry, the games just not fun. We're moving it back to alpha" and started development again.

Also: Who's getting the bigger paycheque from Sigil, I wonder - Reolien or Vaclav?

[Istros]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Also: Who's getting the bigger paycheque from Sigil, I wonder - Reolien or Vaclav?

My guess would be neither: Vaclav is just playing the devil's advocate while Reolien is delusional.

[Skars]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Also: Who's getting the bigger paycheque from Sigil, I wonder - Reolien or Vaclav?

I guess half of this board is on Blizzard's payroll then

[Tual]

Vaclac PLEASE stop talking.

[Citten]

Originally Posted by Tual

Vaclac PLEASE stop talking.

qft...

[Istros]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Lord British (et al) did the sane thing with Tabula Rasa though: They made an announcement a while back saying "Sorry, the games just not fun. We're moving it back to alpha" and started development again.

It seems like as long as the gameworld is huge, death really hurts and it takes a long hard grind to get to 60, they'll have the vanbois covered. There are some threads on the official forum that'd blow the mind of any sane person in a second:

------------------------------------------------------

"Vanguard is imposing many new elements to MMO games to date. Many of these elements have been talked about before and soom Sigil has thought up all on their very own. Which new aspect is your favorite?" -berserker868

some answers:

"honestly don't know. I mean, theres so many cool sounding features listed, its kind of hard to decide without actually trying them all"

"Just...To...much...Good...Stuff...to...name...

I'm a bit of a heavy RP'er as well as several of my friends who are looking at this game, and we have thus far agreed on what we like the most. The detail of the enviroment."

"Fankly, i am a roleplayer, and the ungodly large world of Telon is enough, but all the detail they apply, the capability of influence upon your enviroment, and the Diplomatic classes are all stunning."

"I hope Vanguard shall be very very hard, with slow levelling and way cool powers."

"Vanguard seems to be shaping up to have "Fun" (When's the last time you could say that about a quest in an MMO?) NPC given quests."

"I like the fact that death will cost you."

"My favorite aspect is that Brad and the Sigil team will stay true to the vision of delivering a top notch game having learned from their mistakes on original Everquest and other more or less failed Sony Products."

"A lot of things and its hard to really take one out to be the favorite ... might be the world design, the diplomacy sphere, or ... well you get the idea"

---------------------------------------------
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=51709

One of'em has got to be Reolien

[Agonizing]

Why are people called Vanbois? They are exciting about a game for christ sakes.

We post here, does that make us FoH Whores?



*will never understand the fanboy comments on consoles/games to this day"

[RunningDog]

"1. We found an incredible opportunity: the opportunity to purchase the publishing rights from Microsoft and become our own publisher...

8. This also gives us more time to launch the game when it is truly ready."

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a clause in the contract along the lines of "if this game's not ready for release by fall 2006 then MS has the option to bail out". What it boils down to is that MS believe they get more money from selling the publishing rights now than they will make from sales and subscriptions. They will have studied the options of releasing early but possibly broken, getting income but probably losing subs rapidly; or releasing next year and keeping more subs but requiring new funding for the extended development. I'm sure Brad wouldn't be happy releasing early and MS wasn't happy to find more cash.

So Brad gets a few more months to get Vanguard released (wonder what the EQ2 guys really think about this) and MS is left with a Halo-shaped? MMO hole in it's game titles.

[Iannis]

Originally Posted by Agonizing

Why are people called Vanbois? They are exciting about a game for christ sakes.

We post here, does that make us FoH Whores?

No, it makes us "fhores".

I dunno about Tabula Rasa anyway. I mean, Garriot was a big name a decade ago as the mastermind of Ultima games. But what has he done for me lately?*
*simpsons!

[Istros]

Originally Posted by Agonizing

Why are people called Vanbois? They are exciting about a game for christ sakes.

We post here, does that make us FoH Whores?



*will never understand the fanboy comments on consoles/games to this day"

Have you read any of the comments I quoted above your post? These people are wetting themselves about a game they know practically nothing about and which is, by all indications, in an alpha state currently. That's what I'd call fanboism.

You can be a fan of WoW, EQ1-2, AO or even Matrix Online for all I care, cause they have at least been released and we know their strengths and weaknesses.

Being a blind follower of an unreleased, unfinished product is just lame.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by RunningDog

So Brad gets a few more months to get Vanguard released (wonder what the EQ2 guys really think about this) and MS is left with a Halo-shaped? MMO hole in it's game titles.

Meh, they've got FFXI for the 360 - that'd probably end up with more subs for them than Vanguard ever would have acheived.

[Citten]

Originally Posted by Agonizing

Why are people called Vanbois? They are exciting about a game for christ sakes.

We post here, does that make us FoH Whores?



*will never understand the fanboy comments on consoles/games to this day"

Some people decide to be the least bit subjective they can be, blindly defend, and foam at the mouth when someone questions Vanguard - these are called Vanbois/Fanbois etc. They annoy people that have minds of their own, simply. Their ramblings and bullshit is nothing but crazy inspired love they must have gotten from a wet dream with Brad Mcquaid in it.

There's a fine line between being excited about a game, and just being a plain babbling idiot. There's been a shit ton of influx of idiots posting/preaching their VG talk - post beta annoucement, along with a few queers on this board. There's simply no other definition that suites.