SoE to publish Vanguard

[spentmotiff]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

And WoW's design was completely opposite to how Brad has historically used "Phases" of betas before - ask someone a sec how in depth and amazing Phase 1-3 of EQ1 beta were - and you'll find they were remarkably similar to the status that Vanguard sounds to be in currently.

I just wanted to quote this for truth. While I am really not interested in Vanguard one way or the other, I did beta test EQ (still have the beta disk when they were 989 Studios) and it was a barren mess. I stopped beta testing during phase 4 when they *still* did not have sound and half the NPCs would *still* randomly walk in a given direction and end up in a Conga line to no where.

My point? It's Beta. I think we have grown accustomed to Beta really meaing "Close to Release with some Features missing" instead of "Broken shit everywhere, proceed at Risk." I mean, to the person saying it was running along at 15 FPS and bitching about it, have you ever been in a beta before? I have yet to see one Beta that didn't have FPS issues until everything is optimized.

It used be you went into a Beta knowing it would suck (not counting the Open Beta "try before you buy" scheme,) and that seems to be the beta that Sigil had in mind. If you look over all of the "Leet Beta NDA breaker Infoz" it basically comes down to this: it's not complete, buggy and parts are broken. Well, no shit. It's beta.

Remember kids: Alpha. It's the new Beta.

[Dynalisia]

The more Beta's and the like are used as marketing tools, the less the real original procedures of software design are still being adhered to.

[Iannis]

Originally Posted by Warrik

The level of retardation emanating from this thread is near critical mass.

Luckily it isn't about WoW or it would've been baghdad bobbed many hours ago.

[Khorum]

Does anyone seriously believe that Sigil will take your ass down if you broke the NDA in favor of their game? I agree about discretion for the sake of contractual integrity; noone should breach an agreement regardless how casually it was given. But I suspect Sigil would find even less incentive to prosecute a leak that was in favor of their product than the minimal (if any) incentive they have for pursuing those who have dismantled most of their hard-earned efforts in managing expectations.

Despite this, every discussion about VG Beta somehow degenerates into vaguely amusing armchair QA methodology catfights. It's never a spirited argument about the subjective nature of entertainment, nor a defense of a placeholder-heavy environment... it always comes down to why and wherefore anyone should ever break the NDA.

E3 will detonate this thread, one way or another. I was looking forward to E3 this year already; but whoever arranged this bombshell a week before E3 is either insanely lucky or should be writing a book on viral asymmetric marketting.

[Moontayle]

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

The more Beta's began to be used as marketing tools, the less the real original purpose of a beta test was still adhered to.

Yep. In fact, when I was a correspondent for SWG this was a discussion that took place at the first Summit back in August 2004. Basically it was Thunderheart (God I cannot stress how clueless this douche is) saying that the Beta SWG went through (LOL) would basically never happen anymore because Betas were moving into the realm of Publicity. It was more a take on how as an early tester for SWG you only had emotes and basic running around to do. You literally watched the game being built. Nevermind that SWG is a monumental failure (or that by the point Phase 1 started the game had only had about 6 months of coding after the internal restart).

Now, beta is synonymous with 'sneak peek' and that's how a million people who went through the WoW Open beta see things as. At least the Vanguard team is sticking to what Beta should be.

[chaos]

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for violating an NDA related to beta testing a fucking online game? Let's be serious here, maybe there have been cases, I don't know. But I highly doubt it.

They could pay college kids a liter of Gatorade and 2 grams of hydro to beta test this for them, when they put it out to the masses it's all about MARKETING.

[Korbal]

Vaclav is to Vanguard as Utnayan is to WoW? Seems like it... but somehow, so much worse.

[Angrier]

What I gather, is that these days, a beta for a mmo is a marketing tool (wether you like it or not). Maybe Brad failed to realize this, or maybe just tried to ignore it, and since then, all has gone tits up for him and his game. Did Brad think that Vanguard's beta could just be another beta for another game? No, this is a beta for a mmo, and a highly anticipated one at that, so it's bound to become a marketing tool, like so many people have posted.

I conjure that Blizzard recognized this early on, and didn't run with an open beta until the game was borderline ready, utilizing this powerful marketing tool. Vanguard, on the other hand, apparently treats beta as a real beta (that is, for paid beta testers, with no publicity whatsoever). At least, that is how the situation seems to me.

[Skars]

Originally Posted by Korbal

Vaclav is to Vanguard as Utnayan is to WoW? Seems like it... but somehow, so much worse.

Utnayan doesn't really have a "WoW" connection. It's more anti SOE/Smedley.

[Smithiy]

So far, the biggest NDA breaking hater is too stupid to even figure out how to run the client. To those NDA breakers out there, most of you have obviously not played beta for an extended amount of time, lest you realize that the game HAS made some headway.

Some of yall make it out to sound like Vanguard has not any improvement. Sigil made a move to have an early and extremely lengthy beta, and there is still a long way to go. Hell, two continents arent even in the game yet, that should tell you alot. Expect beta to "suck" until phase 4/open beta, because until then it will be not be complete enough to really enjoy the game. I believe that the game is heading in the right direction, and will hopefully be a game worth playing when it comes out. That remains to be seen however, it could very much suck as many of you claim, but please reserve judgement by not comparing an early beta game to complete games that are already in the market.

If you have complaints about the gameplay and that it is backward and belongs in 1998, then you can argue that. You can argue that the graphics suck for the hardware it runs on, but hopefully that will be improved by release. Just please, dont argue that the game sucks because its buggy/incomplete, that is just absolutely retarded.

[Clowns]

Originally Posted by Vaclav

Shrug, personal experience with friends and watching people's statements on here - a decent number of people here have quit and resubbed later (myself included) and literally EVERY friend of mine that plays MMOs has come and gone at some point.

Undoubtably there's enough new players to cover all of us (I wasn't referring to overall pop) - but it makes their numbers woefully inconsistent. I'm sure if they were to make a guesstimate of how many people they'd have next month it would be a crap shoot - that's the point.

Uh ya, a crapshoot between what? 4 and 5 million? with numbers like that who cares? I mean, the whole state of Iowa could cancel and they would barely feel it.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Smithiy

If you have complaints about the gameplay and that it is backward and belongs in 1998, then you can argue that. You can argue that the graphics suck for the hardware it runs on, but hopefully that will be improved by release. Just please, dont argue that the game sucks because its buggy/incomplete, that is just absolutely retarded.

I agree with you on a couple points, but you cannot blame people here for thinking the way they do after they have been burned God knows how many times with this type of argument. For the record, Star Wars Galaxies used this same approach, and they ended up piling in systems as fast as possible during the final months of beta because they were designing as they went. Look how that game turned out.

Unfortunately, a couple people over at Sigil do not have the best reputation when it comes to their jobs. Jeff Butler was the producer behind the abortion called Shadows of Luclin. Hopefully his role as executive producer doesn't turn out equally terrible. The only one with a handful of experience higher than dirt is Bill Fisher who was horrid at EQ class balance issues, (Hello monks) and some guy who used to work on Earth and Beyond. Christ, they have people in charge of doing content integration and world population whose only experience in video games was playing Rygar on the NES. Hell, even one was addicted to Star Wars Galaxies somehow.

The point here I am trying to make is this lack of experience and the resulting hiring of people that have been a part of SOE's good ol' boy club for the last 7 years, is showing in a product that should have been about 60-65% complete by now. From personal opinion, and from what I have seen of other games in this type of scenario, I think you have the following circumstance:

Brad bit off more then he could chew. The talented people started leaving, Microsoft started getting impatient, and more and more features were put on the backburner for revamps to various systems to actually try and make them fun once new beta testers were not even logging in to the game after a week. Flash forward to now, where Microsoft finally gave up on the project, easily saw where it was headed, to the point of even giving the exclusive rights away from a console version which they would have undoubtedly possessed, now in the hands of Sony. (Where it is my guess a PS3 port is negotiated somewhere in that publishing agreement).

The end result will be something similar to Star Wars Galaxies. Running out of funding, trying desperately to get some hap hazard functions in the game, releasing with what they have got, and gearing up to at least make game sales on hype alone from all the "experience" they have in the genre, in which that experience amounts to knowledge from about 7 people in the company. 2 of which are responsible for EQ's worst expansion.

Sometimes it doesn't take a crystal ball to see a truck of bullshit coming at you when you have experience in smelling it from miles away with 5 other games that have suffered this same exact scenario.

[Goliath]

How are there 41 pages of replies about this topic? It's really not that big of a deal.

[Slick Willey]

Originally Posted by Korbal

Vaclav is to Vanguard as Utnayan is to WoW? Seems like it... but somehow, so much worse.

Nope, Reolien01 = FOH Forum designated Vanboy.

Vaclav clearly wants Vanguard to succeed, and is getting pissed seeing people trashing VG (perhaps the thought of VG failing makes him nervous, and like Fox Moulder, "He Wants to Believe"), but Reolien01 is just blind Vanboyism at is greatest.

[Jedite]

Originally Posted by Goliath

How are there 41 pages of replies about this topic? It's really not that big of a deal.

If this is not a big deal as far as MMO news goes, I dont know what is.

I never thought Id see the day when Brad would rekindle his business relationship with SOE. Let alone that his new baby Vanguard would be the cause of it, and that it would go under the Station Access Umbrella.

Dont get me wrong, I can see were Sigil is going with this and so far from what Ive read its the right move for them. However time will tell really.


I do however have to admit i am a bit scheptic. Even though I know that Smed and Brad are friends, how much would it sting Smed if Vanguard were to blow EQ2/EQ1 subscriptions out of the water? Or how would Brad react about if EQ2 didnt even flinch and VG did not meet expectations. I know they are going into this with the right intentions, but there are a few question marks along the way that I am sure will keep this forum busy for the forseable future.

But really who knows, aslong as the Vision for Vanguard stays intact ill be Marking out when it is released.