eventual itemization problem? (warning: theorycraft)

WarderX · 04-21-2006, 03:04 AM

Aren't certain percent based stats (ie crit, dodge, spell crit, etc) kinda flawed in the sense that it's possible to get close to the cap?
Here are some random builds I just threw together, probably not even the best stuff, just used thottbot and grabbed what looked best out of the top 4 purples or so.
(click on the little boxes underneath the resists for the % reports in ctprofile)

Crit warrior:
http://ctprofiles.net/590782
42.25% base crit
(+more from crit buffs i'm sure)

Dodge rogue:
http://ctprofiles.net/607074
54.98% base dodge
(+50% from evasion?, gg 100% dodge)

Spell crit mage:
http://ctprofiles.net/607346
28.99% base spell crit
(i'm sure there's a better build by far, I don't know much about mages)

etc...

Not saying that it's a walk in the park to get that gear, but just using it as a point...

Let's take the rogue for example, since he's easiest to pick on...
If my math is right, and they keep the same ratio for agility per dodge...
With generous buffing, and over the spread of 18 item slots... on average, items could never go past ~20 more agility (per item, and assuming agility trinkets never come out), ever, or it be possible to have constant 100% avoidance. That's certainly a lot of agility, but we've been seeing about a +7 (i'd say) jump in stats per new dungeon. Interesting...

I suppose they could solve this two ways:
1. When the cap is raised to 70, increase the needed points to get an increase (very likely, but also lame)
2. Put in soft caps, which some people say are there, and some people don't, still havent seen a dev confirm it or not.

Then again, my math could be off, and i'm sure i've missed things. Thoughts?

Clericnon2boxed · 04-21-2006, 03:23 AM

I dont see where the problem is, WoW itemization is quite flawed (I blame PvE/PvP balance) but the few little fun things like getting a very high crit chance or dodgerate or whatever, you wish to get nerfed ?

Specialized gear sets is part of the little fun I have with gear in WoW.

WarderX · 04-21-2006, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clericnon2boxed

I dont see where the problem is, WoW itemization is quite flawed (I blame PvE/PvP balance) but the few little fun things like getting a very high crit chance or dodgerate or whatever, you wish to get nerfed ?

Specialized gear sets is part of the little fun I have with gear in WoW.

I don't dislike it, I just find it funny that we're allready (over) halfway to the point of god-mode for some characters...

and this is before any expansions..

Zuuljin · 04-21-2006, 03:45 AM

It will go the way of diminishing returns like EQ did. You'll be spending 25 AA for .01% chance to crit, and youll love it.

EQ2 actually had a problem like this on launch. It was possible with group buffs to have 100% avoidence.

venom · 04-21-2006, 03:57 AM

Maybe they could start getting a little more creative in terms of item modifications. But yea, I agree with Zuuljin in that diminishing returns will probably be something we end up seeing down the road.

Zorlac · 04-21-2006, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarderX

42.25% base crit

I can get close to that, about 39%ish crit (with buffs of course), problem is, untauntable mobs or aggro wiping mobs kill me. Was toying around with high crit rate on Onyxia and I did manage to climb up on the 4th spot on DamageMeters, but was promptly decapitated (and I took some people with me) at around 15% of her HP. You can bump up your critrate all you want, if you don't survive some fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarderX

54.98% base dodge
(+50% from evasion?, gg 100% dodge)

I am pretty sure avoidance is already capped at something like 60%, avoidance being a composite of dodge, parry and block.

Drauk · 04-21-2006, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorlac

I am pretty sure avoidance is already capped at something like 60%, avoidance being a composite of dodge, parry and block.

This is totally unconfirmed rumor.

Runnen · 04-21-2006, 05:23 AM

I think Blizzard should put in some kind of Defense equivalent against magic. So that you decrease the chances of getting nuked by a critical spell.

Qhue · 04-21-2006, 05:29 AM

Sure.

Just as soon as Mage Armor is changed to apply +90 Defense to anull melee crits we can talk.

Drauk · 04-21-2006, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runnen

I think Blizzard should put in some kind of Defense equivalent against magic. So that you decrease the chances of getting nuked by a critical spell.

http://thotbott.com/?i=53363
http://thotbott.com/?i=53331
http://thotbott.com/?i=53372

WarderX · 04-21-2006, 05:39 AM

I don't think there is a cap for avoidance. Or atleast there wasn't before patch 1.6

Two reasons:
1. A hunter acheived 102% (w/ pre-nerf Juju Escape) and posted a video. Can't find it (Unfortunately, blizzard forum search says the word "dodge" has never been posted

)
2. Evasion tanking as a rogue feels a lot higher than 60%

Algol Devilstar · 04-21-2006, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runnen

I think Blizzard should put in some kind of Defense equivalent against magic. So that you decrease the chances of getting nuked by a critical spell.

You must be outta your damn mind.

Dyscord · 04-21-2006, 06:45 AM

Remember as you level your base crit from agi/int goes down. It requires more and more agi to = 1 crit. So as we hit level 70 rogues might find their crit rates actually sliding down til they end up with whatever tiny upgrades burning crusade will offer.

Deathwing · 04-21-2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorlac

I am pretty sure avoidance is already capped at something like 60%, avoidance being a composite of dodge, parry and block.

Negative. This is why a warrior with 25% base chance to shield block will never be crit or crushed with shield block up. 100% chance to block, in PvE, pushes everything below it off the lookup table. The mob can still miss you, but I think it's been tested that crit and crushing blow are below block in priority.

On the original topic, new stats can be introduced, because that's exactly what the system needs. The stat budget works better when spread out over many stats. Maybe stuff like EQ introduced in PoP like shielding on items. Or maybe chance at triple crits?

elrich · 04-21-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Or maybe chance at triple crits?

Because WoW pvp needs to be even more gib-tastic

04-21-2006, 03:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
WarderX Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,593 +2 Internets	eventual itemization problem? (warning: theorycraft) Aren't certain percent based stats (ie crit, dodge, spell crit, etc) kinda flawed in the sense that it's possible to get close to the cap? Here are some random builds I just threw together, probably not even the best stuff, just used thottbot and grabbed what looked best out of the top 4 purples or so. (click on the little boxes underneath the resists for the % reports in ctprofile) Crit warrior: http://ctprofiles.net/590782 42.25% base crit (+more from crit buffs i'm sure) Dodge rogue: http://ctprofiles.net/607074 54.98% base dodge (+50% from evasion?, gg 100% dodge) Spell crit mage: http://ctprofiles.net/607346 28.99% base spell crit (i'm sure there's a better build by far, I don't know much about mages) etc... Not saying that it's a walk in the park to get that gear, but just using it as a point... Let's take the rogue for example, since he's easiest to pick on... If my math is right, and they keep the same ratio for agility per dodge... With generous buffing, and over the spread of 18 item slots... on average, items could never go past ~20 more agility (per item, and assuming agility trinkets never come out), ever, or it be possible to have constant 100% avoidance. That's certainly a lot of agility, but we've been seeing about a +7 (i'd say) jump in stats per new dungeon. Interesting... I suppose they could solve this two ways: 1. When the cap is raised to 70, increase the needed points to get an increase (very likely, but also lame) 2. Put in soft caps, which some people say are there, and some people don't, still havent seen a dev confirm it or not. Then again, my math could be off, and i'm sure i've missed things. Thoughts? Last edited by WarderX; 04-21-2006 at 03:09 AM..

04-21-2006, 05:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
Runnen Lore belongs in a museum! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: France Posts: 2,478 +9 Internets	I think Blizzard should put in some kind of Defense equivalent against magic. So that you decrease the chances of getting nuked by a critical spell. __________________ As the speed of light is superior to that of sound, most people look bright until they start talking.

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04-21-2006, 03:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
Clericnon2boxed this way Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: El Dorado Posts: 1,776	I dont see where the problem is, WoW itemization is quite flawed (I blame PvE/PvP balance) but the few little fun things like getting a very high crit chance or dodgerate or whatever, you wish to get nerfed ? Specialized gear sets is part of the little fun I have with gear in WoW.

04-21-2006, 03:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
Zuuljin So there's this plane on a treadmill... Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,203 +20 Internets	It will go the way of diminishing returns like EQ did. You'll be spending 25 AA for .01% chance to crit, and youll love it. EQ2 actually had a problem like this on launch. It was possible with group buffs to have 100% avoidence.

04-21-2006, 03:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
venom Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 197	Maybe they could start getting a little more creative in terms of item modifications. But yea, I agree with Zuuljin in that diminishing returns will probably be something we end up seeing down the road.

04-21-2006, 05:29 AM	#9 (permalink)
Qhue Tunare's most surly gnome Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sunny Upstate NY Posts: 1,443	Sure. Just as soon as Mage Armor is changed to apply +90 Defense to anull melee crits we can talk.

04-21-2006, 05:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
WarderX Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,593 +2 Internets	I don't think there is a cap for avoidance. Or atleast there wasn't before patch 1.6 Two reasons: 1. A hunter acheived 102% (w/ pre-nerf Juju Escape) and posted a video. Can't find it (Unfortunately, blizzard forum search says the word "dodge" has never been posted ) 2. Evasion tanking as a rogue feels a lot higher than 60%

04-21-2006, 06:45 AM	#13 (permalink)
Dyscord Harvey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Command Carrier Posts: 2,163 +34 Internets	Remember as you level your base crit from agi/int goes down. It requires more and more agi to = 1 crit. So as we hit level 70 rogues might find their crit rates actually sliding down til they end up with whatever tiny upgrades burning crusade will offer.