Shaman Review in 1.11

[Nakilos]

What boggles the mind about these reviews is why lots can't be done at the same time. Seriously, when you wade through the cesspool of mouth breathers, TONS of players offer excellent suggestions for changes. Its not like good feedback is never given. It should take minimal time at all. If anything, the bulk of the time should be time spent on test making sure the changes aren't unbalanced. Instead, its a phenomenal waste of time on 1 class, and its basically a crapshoot if the review was beneficial or not.

Glad to see Shamans are getting looked at but wtf, there is only 9 classes, not 14 or 24. Its something that should be ongoing fixes every patch.

P.S. Thanks for breaking Shield Specialization and Unbridled Wrath, then having your PR nightmare Tseric mention "it will be fixed in a future patch". That can't be hotfixed? Because if something like that gets broken can't be hotfixed, thats pretty god damn pathetic.

[Teger]

Does anyone else have a horrible suspicion that the 'shaman review' will really turn the shaman class into some quasi-mage-healer mix that is lackluster in all aspects?

[JohnQuincyAdams]

Originally Posted by Praetor

useless talents . . . .

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/442100-post99.html

The fire-based +spelldam totem seems like a no-brainer. Right now shamans offer so little to a caster group, and it'd fit the class well, I think.

a totem idea

Upon reviewing your post and the one linked, I am reminded of useless talents. My opinion on shamans comes from PvP experience; they do well enough, but have few varying specs, similar to how most warriors spec 31/20 MS. The difference is that warrior talent tiers all have useful abilities. Shaman tiers don't.

Starting with enhancement, imo the most troubled tree:

Shield Spec - shamans receive very little +block, so absorbing a minor amount of damage makes for a weak talent. Reducing a small amount of damage (but not enough to completely absorb special attacks like Gouge and Hamstring) makes Shield Spec unpreferable when compared to Ancestral Knowledge. Combining Anticipation and/or Toughness with Shield Spec would make it a more viable talent. Shield spec would also be useful for...

Improved Lightning Shield - currently, it's boring. Change Imp. LS to imbue a shaman's shield with a reflective nature damage aura. Basically, my idea of Imp. LS would reflect damage to an attacker if an attack is blocked. Ranks of the new Imp LS. should also increase the damage dealt by normal LS. Shamans would have a reason to wear a shield other than mitigating melee damage.

Improved Rock/Frost/Flame/Wind Weapon - combine all of these talents to give an effect like warlock's Master Demonologist. Five levels would provide a sufficient progression to the next talent tier. There would need to be changes to how elemental wepaon enchants work, too, to be more situatonal. Nobody would be happy to have a two point talent be increased to five.
- Imp. Windfury: Increased chance to proc by 4% per point (change windfury to have a lower modifier, but increased proc chance around 40%, like paladin's seal of command). Mages wouldn't die in one round of Sulfuras. Damage would be more consistent. Balance = gg
- Imp. Frostbrand: Increases snare effect by 3% per level. Change normal frostbrand to have a 60% snare without diminishing returns. It'd be like a rogue's crippling poison, with the exception that shamans don't melee as well as rogues.
- Imp. Flametongue: Increases damage by 4% per level. Change normal flametongue to have higher damage than windfury v. targets with high mitigation.
- Imp. Rockbiter: Increase attack power by w/e percent
Consolidating many small, useless talents into one talent and changing the way weapon brands work, to be more situational, is good.

Improved Grace of Air - move to a lower tier.

That's it from me for a while, I'm tired. The numbers are obviously estimates: I haven't done sufficient parsing to calculate these percentages effect. I hope my ideas aren't too stupid.

[xilsharn]

I'm really looking forward to having to retrain 2handers.

[PatrickStar]

Originally Posted by blindeye

Am I missing something here? Given the changes that happened to wars and locks I'd be really happy.

What WoW are you playing? I'd like to try it out.

[Sylas]

Who knows. He must have mistaken the Warrior and Warlock "reviews" for the Druid/hunter one, me thinks.

[Malvesti]

From what I've seen, the real problem with mages is more itemization than talents/spells.

It took their item designers about a year to realize that mages had no way to increase DPS except by +damage gear. Did you ever look at the magister set? Sad...

[Sancus]

Originally Posted by Burning_Samurai

Fucking mages are the last class that needs a review.

EDIT: Can't wait for rogue review, "Imp Distraction and Imp Garrot removed. Congrats"
Seriously, rogues have literally recieved 3 buffs since release and like 85 nerfs/"fixes". Getting tired of this shit. http://shadowpanther.net/roguechanges.htm

That site you linked, which is clearly as fucking retarded as you are, lists basically anything that might be conceived as indirectly affecting a Rogue ability in a negative way as a "nerf". What kind of retardation is that? Making it harder to stay out of combat in Molten Core is a fucking rogue nerf? That's retarded bullshit, if anything, it's a nerf to classes with REZ ABILITIES. Vanish still wipes aggro. So maybe you have to take a wipe like a man instead of a pussy hunter every once in a while. Wow what a nerf. Jesus fucking christ, I guess I should list that change as a Mage "buff" because it means that Rogues can't cheat their way out of wipes as easily thereby evening repair costs? That's about as indirect as most of these so-called "nerfs" are.

Goddamn there are some blatantly incompetent fucktards on these forums.

It's gonna be minor. Some buffs to the crappy talents and some improvement in PvE usefulness.

Same with mages. Evocation and IAE made standard. A few crappy talents buffed.

The four things they've mentioned so far(IAE, Evocation standard abilities, AoE damage coefficients made decent, and AM damage coefficient made decent) are minor in that they don't require a lot of work to change, but they will *significantly* improve the class. Not requiring ~18 points in Arcane is pretty big in terms of possible builds, and having our most worthless primary nuke, yet the only one we can reduce aggro on, become properly scaling is pretty damn huge too.

Frankly, improvements to Mages are pretty obvious and *should* be minor in required developer time. We don't need any revamped Talent trees. But these small changes will have a very big impact on how the class plays.

[Zehn - Vhex]

You people have nothing on priests.

If Holy Nova wasn't such disgusting fun in AV, we've recieved nothing but nerfs since the tri-horde beta push.

[Gamblor]

Originally Posted by ElGallo

Amen dude. McQuiad made sure balance issues were fixed lightning-fast. Troll SKs only had a 60% xp penalty for like 3 hours after release I think.

It was a multiplicative modifier actually. 1.2 * 1.4 = 68% penalty over a human cleric, and 1.2 * 1.55 = 86.6% over a human warrior.

Compared to asslings it was even worse. 76.8% for cleric and 96.5% for a Warrior. IIRC you the required exp to level a 60 troll SK would make a 60 assling warrior and a 58 cleric.

The best part about that whole horrible system was that they shared that exp penalty with the whole group.

[Whyme]

You people have nothing on priests.

If Holy Nova wasn't such disgusting fun in AV, we've recieved nothing but nerfs since the tri-horde beta push.

As much as that's true, nothing comes close to the Warlocks class breaking nerf during p2. Going from being able to solo SM with succ pet to not being able to take down a mob 20 levels lower than me with imp was teh awesome.

[Kodylan]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

You people have nothing on priests.

If Holy Nova wasn't such disgusting fun in AV, we've recieved nothing but nerfs since the tri-horde beta push.

You can't be serious. Every priest I've talked to likes the 1.10 changes.

And Surlok, good luck getting a reliable and worthwhile consistant dps ability. Paladins have been asking for it for a long time and they haven't gotten it yet. You're in the same boat as them in that regard.

[Plaeroma]

Originally Posted by PatrickStar

What WoW are you playing? I'd like to try it out.

PvP WoW would be my guess.

[Darph]

Originally Posted by apm

what the hell does "review" mean anyway?

"we made up all the classes at once and then let whatever happen happen...and now a year and a half after thinking about shamans, we are going to 'review' them - you know - just to make sure everything is still peachy." ?


they should be CONSTANTLY reviewing ALL of the classes.

when the hell is vanguard coming out?

Dear Retard,

Class reviews are MAJOR revamps of classes that are done to enhance the class's alternate player styles. EVERY class has had or will have a class revamp, the majority of them have been done at this time.

They "Fix" broken shit when it breaks for the most part, that has nothing to do with the review session. Reviews usually enhance "underpowered" specs and usually add totally new abilities.

Now, have all reviews been for the better? No.. Warriors got fucked pretty good, and our best defensive skill was removed from the game.. which made the spec even less playable.

WoW has a very small number of classes compaired to Vanguard and EQ2, and also has a much, much larger budget, so you can expect the balance to be a lot better.

Cheers!

[Charles]

It's sad that this thread was derailed so badly...


I play a Shaman in a Guild that killed the Twin Emperors fairly early in March, and I mean there's no doubt that the Shaman Class is in a great need of help.


~Totems: They absolutely have to be changed. They've basically been broken since their conception. I mean, the idea was good and fun, and all of that good stuff, but the way work currently in the game shows that the implementation of the idea was undoubtedly flawed, from PvP to PvE.

1. They cost far too much Mana for their current use. In some fights it's simply not worth dropping them for people. And that simply should not be the case for such an essential part of our Class.

2. They simply aren't balanced with the usefulness of the skills of our counterpart Class, the Paladin. Mana Spring Totem and Blessing of Wisdom is an easy example to make, the two are simply not comparable. I don't want to bash Paladins or anything, but it's really the only Class available to make a logical comparison to. And when you make that comparison you just end up sitting and laughing for an hour about it, which simply should not happen. Balance is the key word here, and it's missing.

3. They don't work very well. As Gurgthock pointed out in his post, many people have made very good suggestions as to what could be done with how Totems work to make them more viable in newer encounters.
So, I'll try to go over as little of that as possible, but basically you have to bring up the Paladin yet again, their buffs aren't pulsed out of stationary little Totems. The entire idea behind Totems is silly. Especially when you see all of the new and exciting encounters that involve moving, and you realize that a core part of our Class simply has little to no part in these new style of encounters.

4. Fire Totems need to be buffed, badly. Add new Fire Totems that actually help the Raid (Hopefully), or the Group at the very least. It is absolutely idiotic to have a quarter of our available buffs be basically useless in 99% of the game. Not only is it not balanced with Paladins, it's basically non existent.


~Healing: It's what I do. Sure, I throw out some Chain Lightning's and Lightning Bolt's, and Shocks of course in PvP. But you simply do not do it on 90% of the encounters currently in the game. It is not a viable option to DPS as a Shaman, just as it is not a viable option to DPS as a Paladin (as far as I know at least).

1. Our heals are not diverse enough. If we're not supposed to be a Super Support Class, like the Paladin, then at least give us some diversity in our heals. Chain Heal is simply not cutting it, it's a nice spell to use during some encounters, but again, it's simply not viable to use most of the time. And this should not be the case for the only special heal that we have.

2. Our heals are simply not Mana Efficient enough, this has been changing recently of course, and for good reason. All of our heals should be made more Mana Efficient, or we should receive some sort of compensation for them. It's as simply as that. (Hint: Buff Mana Spring Totem a huge amount)


~Damage: I'm 30/0/21, I have fairly nice equipment, something like 350+ in damage gear, and my damage really isn't that great. You nerfed my double trinkets, which added a lot of fun in getting big hits that other Classes see regularly.
Our Melee Damage is fairly weak, simply because when we get in close we're extremely vulnerable in any group situation where the opposing forces are wearing BWL/AQ items. Mail armor simply doesn't cut it. Stoneskin Totem isn't going to save you. I know this and I've never been specialized in Enhancement. It either needs an amazing amount of help, or you should simply remove the idea of Shaman melee altogether.

1. In my opinion the entire idea behind the current Enhancement Tree is silly. It should not be focusing on, or at least seem to be focusing on Enhanced Melee Damage, but rather it should be focused more on Enhancing the Raid or Group, instead of giving those among us that think that our Class has some sort of viable melee damage outside of 1v1 duels a false hope. Which is what it really is.
The entire idea behind this whole Warrior/Priest/Mage combination in Mail armor thing is absurd. And it's time to do something about it. Either make Melee Shaman viable or change the tree to buff the Group/Raid more instead of buffing themselves.

2. Our spells, or more specifically and more on topic of this section, our Damage Spells, are extremely Mana Inefficient. It is not viable for Raiding, it is barely viable for PvP, and even then you're going to spend a large amount of time sitting down to drink trying to refill your poor mana bar.

3. Our Damage Totems, or at least Elemental Damage totems, are worthless 99% of the time. They clearly need to be changed and completely reworked if you want them to be used more often than a few special occasions in which they're actually useful.


~Talents: This has been gone over many, many times. I'll try to quickly recap for you. Many of our Talents are completely worthless. Basically leading to any good Talent that we have, is a road of absolutely horrid Talents that simply should not be.

My opinion does differ a bit from many others though, in I feel that the Elemental Tree is by far the most fleshed out of our Talent Tree's. Going into it up to 30 or more points and you will get mostly good quality Talents, that you will actually put to good use.

The real issue is the Enhancement Tree, and then Secondly the Restoration Tree.

~~Enhancement: As I said above, I feel that Melee Shaman are simply not viable in the current game, at all. We don't have the survivability skills or simply the general survivability of the other Melee Classes. Mail Armor alone just does not cut it vs. any opponent using quality equipment.

1. I feel that the Tree should be completely changed. It's time to move away from the idea of Shaman Melee, and it's time to start moving us into the utility Class that we should be. Change the Enhancement Tree to the "Buff Tree", this would be a good place to put the Totem changes (Early in the tree, obviously), and many Totem buffs. A few unique skills spread throughout the Tree. And it would be a perfectly fine in my opinion. I personally would specialize in it instead of Elemental.

2. You could obviously go another less drastic route, but I wouldn't recommend it. Change it the a Buff/Totem Buff Tree, that's what it should have been in the first place. Enhancement.

~~Restoration: This Tree is second in need of work in my opinion (Do note that I feel all three of our Talent Trees need work). But it isn't a huge amount of work.

1. Simply Remove/Update the worthless Talents, it is common knowledge what most of these are now.

2. Move Mana Tide to a lower position, as it's simply not worth 31 points. Or buff it by a large amount, to make it worth those 31 points that it takes to get.

3. Add a new 31 point Talent, surprise us. Mana Tide really doesn't cut it though. It's not worth the investment, it's not that useful in many encounters. And perhaps the worst thing of all, Blessing of Wisdom.


Let me end with saying that there is plenty of opportunity and room for growth within the Class. I've been playing the Shaman Class for well over a year and a half now, and I've played a Shaman and only a Shaman (Aside from one Priest Alt), since release.

And of course, these are only my observations and the opinions that I've formed over this time. I don't mean to flame Enhancement Shaman, or Paladin's, or anything like that.


And before I go, let me say that it's pretty late. So please forgive the laziness later on in the post, as I've basically lost my thought process and can't concentrate for any longer.
And obviously for any typos / grammatical errors, you have my apologies. I'll try to fix them at some point~

As well as apologizing for the incoming cross post, since this thread has already been derailed and is on page three already.