Another lead designer leaves sigil.

[nyx]

Originally Posted by Itzena

www.worldofwarcraft.com

In case you hadn't noticed, WoW is the biggest-selling MMOG since, well, ever and didn't have an NDA past friends-and-family late-alpha/early beta. The trick isn't having an NDA, but having a solid game during beta. Beta testing ought to be about testing, not fixing fundamental broken game mechanics.

BZZZZZZZZZZZT, wrong.

They did have a very VERY strict NDA during friends and family beta, which lasted a hella long time. In a nutshell, Blizzard is smrt. Real beta test = call it an alpha and F&F and keep it very hush hush. Beta test = give the kiddies what they want and go public. Wordplay at its finest.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Slick Willey

I think this would be where Uty and Itz chime in that, at this point, the final game BETTER damm well resemble the game in its current state (or that of a few months ago), because again, now is not the time to be changing fundamental concepts (if that is what in fact is happening, which sounds debatable).

Exactly. And it isn't a good thing.

Unfortunately, what I have heard from a lot of beta testers leads me to tell you that indeed the gameplay is boring, the game world is uninspired, and unfortunately, the game is not fun and they are scrambling to try and make it fun.

I think the game will probably not even remotely resemble what you saw it as a few months ago...

You know what that means in a nutshell? About 13 months of design thrown away and revamped when that time could have been used to propel unique features into the game, which will now be cut and released via live, charging customers for it because of bone headed gameplay decisions that fell on their ass. It's exactly why this genre has been thrown into a state of mediocre to sub par at best launches.

Sounds like a winner

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by nyx

BZZZZZZZZZZZT, wrong.

They did have a very VERY strict NDA during friends and family beta, which lasted a hella long time. In a nutshell, Blizzard is smrt. Real beta test = call it an alpha and F&F and keep it very hush hush. Beta test = give the kiddies what they want and go public. Wordplay at its finest.

NDA was lifted before beta 2 began. Which was 7 months at least before the game was released.

[kohl]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

You know what that means in a nutshell? About 13 months of design thrown away and revamped when that time could have been used to propel unique features into the game...

If there is only 1 lesson to be learned from the launches of SWG and EQ2, leave your game in beta for as long as it takes to get it right! (within reason of course...).

I don't understand why this is such a foreign concept to companies. Yeah I understand that the bean-counters and deadlines, etc mean that there is pressure to get the game out by a certain date, but if the consequence of that is a poor initial reaction and bad word of mouth, how can that possibly be worth it financially?

[nyx]

True, but the friends and family/alpha went on for a very long time. I believe it was a bit over a year. One of the agreements in the NDA during that time was to allow Blizzard to randomly scan your computer, they were very harsh with the NDA. I think Blizzard learned quite a bit from previous games.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by nyx

BZZZZZZZZZZZT, wrong.

They did have a very VERY strict NDA during friends and family beta, which lasted a hella long time. In a nutshell, Blizzard is smrt. Real beta test = call it an alpha and F&F and keep it very hush hush. Beta test = give the kiddies what they want and go public. Wordplay at its finest.

Hence why I said 'past F&F'.

Also, technically (from a programming point of view) Blizzard was much closer with their nomenclature than most other MMOG developers - Alpha should be "We're mucking about with the core design - be prepared for bugs, downtime and so forth" and beta should be "We're more or less happy with this - please try to break it and make non-game-redesigning-from-scratch suggestions for changes".

[Zuuljin]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

You know what that means in a nutshell? About 13 months of design thrown away and revamped when that time could have been used to propel unique features into the game, which will now be cut and released via live, charging customers for it because of bone headed gameplay decisions that fell on their ass. It's exactly why this genre has been thrown into a state of mediocre to sub par at best launches.

Sounds like a winner

Or maybe that was 13 months of unique features and idea's that did not work out, so they are being revamped to be more fun.

[Itzena]

Then, logically, the beta is being extended thirteen more months.


Right?

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Exactly. And it isn't a good thing.

Unfortunately, what I have heard from a lot of beta testers leads me to tell you that indeed the gameplay is boring, the game world is uninspired, and unfortunately, the game is not fun and they are scrambling to try and make it fun.

You do realize how unfair it is to throw statements like this? The people who might disagree with this and have the ability to argue this point cannot because they respect the NDA. Speculation about a game in beta is very unfair and wrong, because the only people willing to speak tend to be NDA breakers, and people who enjoy the game do not wish to throw away a contract they signed and take seriously.

You know what that means in a nutshell? About 13 months of design thrown away and revamped when that time could have been used to propel unique features into the game, which will now be cut and released via live, charging customers for it because of bone headed gameplay decisions that fell on their ass. It's exactly why this genre has been thrown into a state of mediocre to sub par at best launches.

Sounds like a winner

to me, this means the opposite. If the devs are willing to recognize, hey this is crap, change it, that is a sign of a game that will be shaped in a positive direction.

They have plenty of experience making amazing places I enjoyed, all I would like is for Brad's vision to be 'mellowed out' and compromised in places where the vision is hurting fun, and this seems to be the case.

I want to make a final point. If I feel that Vanguard is released 'before it is ready' to beat an imaginary deadline (before christmas, before WoW expansion, before EQ2 expansion, etc) I will NOT purchase it. I am going to vote with my wallet and suggest all do the same - if I even hear that the game is mildly rushed because of a deadline, I will flat out refuse to purchase it for any reason, and suggest to every single one of my friends to do the same, but the time to do that judgement is open beta, not an NDA covered beta2.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Zuuljin

Or maybe that was 13 months of unique features and idea's that did not work out, so they are being revamped to be more fun.

I am talking about things other than combat. Boats, player owned ships, pirates, better NPC AI similar to scripting in Oblivion, flying mounts, and a ton of other things that are now most likely going to be cut and finished on subscription revenue.

The genre needs to advance. Better physics engines, NPC behavior patterns and adjustments, weather/seasonal upgrades, dynamic world changes, etc. None of this stuff is going to start making it into MMORPG's until designers buy a clue and figure out a decent combat system doc before they design the game so they do not have to revamp mechanics 5 times in beta while everything else gets shelved.

to me, this means the opposite. If the devs are willing to recognize, hey this is crap, change it, that is a sign of a game that will be shaped in a positive direction.

That's fantastic. And Itz brings up a great point. I won't have a problem with it if they extend the beta the same amount of time that they spend revamping so they can finish everything else they wanted to finish, instead of shipping a game where say 12 months of design was intended to go into other features, but because of a severe lack of foresight, customers end up paying for the short sightedness of developers.

But that isn't going to happen. What will happen is:

McQuaid: "We revamped combat and a lot of the game world, balance and such, and it is now fun."

Microsoft: "Ok. Ship it, and we'll finish the rest of the planned features on subscription revenue"

What should happen:

McQuaid/Microsoft: "We needed to schedule a stall of the other features while allocating time and resources to a combat/content/art revamp. We need 6 more months of dev time to finish what was stalled before we go retail"

[Zehn - Vhex]

Itzena's got the jist of it. Beta's were typically, "Okay, the software works. Now let's see if you guys can break it." It wasn't really until the advent of MMO's that beta's became, "We don't know what the fuck we're doing, lehp plz." It's reassuring to know that dev's are willing to change the game, but honestly...shouldn't a developer at some point sat down, looked at the design and said, "Wait a second...this fucking sucks."

Of course, MMO's have also made "pay to beta test" popular as well. I find it funny that it took EQ 3 years to remove the "We are still in a beta testing phase" text from the in game help.

[Angrier]

Originally Posted by FloridaGamer

I dunno...you guys keep trying to come off as cool for breaking the NDA and talking shit about the game.

No they aren't. You are just making that shit up you fucking drama bitch. Stfu.

P.S.
I don't in any way support breaking NDA, but they are not doing it to be "cool" you fucking cretin.

[Citten]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

It's reassuring to know that dev's are willing to change the game, but honestly...shouldn't a developer at some point sat down, looked at the design and said, "Wait a second...this fucking sucks."

QFT.

That's exactly what's truly boggling the fuck right out of me now.

A few things.

A. If they keep cutting the shit out of their features - although maybe needed for maintance on more core things, wont that kind of devalue their '3rd gen' stance? I've heard so many things are being cut or trimmed down. Including advanced housing (the 'basic' is still going to be in release but not as much as they wanted), flying mounts, even ships and core sea content, there's a few others too.

It's all really sad they've worked so hard on something and it's really not unique at all, not fun..not really well done besides steller graphics and a talented audio designer (from what i've heard at least...) and now it's going to have to cut even more things out?

B. Really wish Sigil would revoke beta accounts that aren't being constructively used to heighten the game. I don't care how fucking lame the game is. It's a shame that what, 4 thousand god damn people have beta access but peak nights remain at 100? No idea how this would work, but they need to fucking kick people out who aren't making a honest attempt to at least put SOME effort into giving a fuck, otherwise replace them with someone else.

[Digo]

B. Really wish Sigil would revoke beta accounts that aren't being constructively used to heighten the game. I don't care how fucking lame the game is. It's a shame that what, 4 thousand god damn people have beta access but peak nights remain at 100? No idea how this would work, but they need to fucking kick people out who aren't making a honest attempt to at least put SOME effort into giving a fuck, otherwise replace them with someone else.

Do you see a problem with this reasoning?

[BanquozGhost]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

IIt's reassuring to know that dev's are willing to change the game, but honestly...shouldn't a developer at some point sat down, looked at the design and said, "Wait a second...this fucking sucks."

This only works when your concepts of what constitute fun and what sucks are ... you know .... normal.