Another lead designer leaves sigil.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Zuuljin

I dunno, maybe I'm weird, but I enjoyed the constant flux of spell tweaks. Every patch had new and exciting stuff. Was I going to be super powerful for the next 2 weeks, or will I suck balls? I played a Human SK and loved every minute of it. I think just about every class had their repeating 15 minutes of uberness, it was just wondering under which patch it would return.

I enjoyed playing a necro because it meant I could FD in the corner, go and run to Country Kitchen, have some steak and pancakes, then come back and mana dump on the cleric, then collect loot.

[The Hiram Key]

Originally Posted by elrich

Hiram, it seems like your complaint is right along the same line as Krones'

As such, you should read his post, the re-read it. Take example of how he presented his issues. That is the form and structure of a well put and well reasonable argument, and even though what he posted was criticism, it was well worded and well thought. Reading his post, it doesn't sound like he is crying "I didnt get into beta and I'm angry!", like yours did.

You want to honestly get your opinion/voice out there? Do so reasonably.

Yeah, in hindsight I see this is the case. It's hard though as I feel not only is the beta invite process royally fucked up (and has been for a long time) but if you are able to tune into the dull roar in the background of this thread it's pretty obvious that Vanguard has problems, serious ones.

As someone who has been looking forward to that game, that really pisses me off to no end. Add to that lack of interest in beta testing by the 4k schmucks who were invited and it really stews my tomatos.

I think there is certainly a time for well formed and written thoughts and ideas and a time for saying "hey you goat fucking moron, you are screwing up from square one, what's it going to take for you to realize it?".

I don't see Krones post as a complaint, more as a statement of fact. I really don't care one way or the other, the fact remains their beta invite process sucks ass, and that is in all likelyhood 1/3rd of their fucking problem right from the get go. Of the supposed 4k users who were invited to beta to day, how many actually enjoy beta testing ? Report bugs regularly ? Have vast experience in MMO's ? Are computer savy ? Are actually interested in testing and not getting leet beta infoz only ?

There is no way to know because no system has been created to identify this "core" target group of players. Instead we get invites sent to friends and family, the leaders of the big kick ass guilds (because yeah, as a leader of the #1 or #2 guild on my server currently, I know I wanna drop all that and go wade through bugs and fucked up game play) and people who jerk my game off on my own forums.

They are using the beta invite process as a marketing tool and not as a process to improve their game.

Sub 100 on peak night makes me want to punch people.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Zuuljin

I played a Human SK and loved every minute of it.

You are, quite clearly, a loony.

[Citten]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Also: Is it me, or does Brad's post (linked above) pretty much confirm what's been said earlier in this thread by the NDA breakers - namely there's few testers playing at the moment, and that Vanguard needs a lot more work doing to it?

Bingo.....

And on other posts as well.

The funniest god damn part about it is that people STILL argue and give their whole 'well we dont know how good or not good it is, the NDA leakers are all evil and nothing is confirmed, people that wanna keep their accounts wont talk' speech. Which drives me up the fucking wall when you got the guy right there in multiple threads not only confirming but just flat out leveling with us.
Obviously he does so and tries to justify things though... plays it down... so his loving community all dont kick the bucket right then and there and have to be sent to the E.R. in a massive influx of VG fanboy, which later to be known as Mcquaid Syndrome...


Maybe a few NDA leaks did them good, their X mindset has been un-hypnotized, seeing a different input other than their loving fangay community - taking a step back and looking at the numbers... the reports.... the disappointment threads in their beta boards or whatever and responses to leaks. I wonder how much less things would have been worried about without the bad press - how much less they'd have been changed, or how much longer it'd have taken them to respond and adjust to the problem. Amidst the numbers issue.

Some people seem to think this is being over-dramatized, while i agree, there's truly a problem with that login number and it does show us a lot. Lots really want this game to be something worth playing. Hopefully the recent stir will set things on a better track and we can all just chill the fuck out, however until then, those who've been waiting in dire anticipation for a game that's worth spending your 15 dollars a week on, like me, still have something to worry about...

hi2u eq1 discs, que sad eyes...

[Schatze]

most classes got screwed in Kunark. But it was the result of the old spell system combined with the 32k cap (unresistible lifetaps overpowered under this system) and the steps taken to address these issues (combined with hybrid ideology) without actually addressing the issues that caused the klass klusterfuck of kunark.

For all the shit talking, Poe's method of doing spells is pretty much what WOW copied, except they built their system from the ground up giving class x, y, z spell lines and just giving them further iterations as they leveled.

EQ2 took the "tier" system which left room for adding in new abilities and new flavors of abilities (not just repetitive iterations), but without painting themselves into a corner.

So... Back on topic. I wonder what approach vanguard is taking? A 'scientific' method like WOW, or an 'artistic' method like EQ1 release, or a combination of the two like eq2 (which i find preferable, /shill). IMO the artistic method would work out best if someone could make it work, but with the scope of games currently, it'd probably be near impossible.

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Zuuljin

I dunno, maybe I'm weird, but I enjoyed the constant flux of spell tweaks. Every patch had new and exciting stuff. Was I going to be super powerful for the next 2 weeks, or will I suck balls? I played a Human SK and loved every minute of it. I think just about every class had their repeating 15 minutes of uberness, it was just wondering under which patch it would return.

People like to remember the good things and tend to forget the bad things, it's part of the human nature. Overall I can only admire all of those troll SKs in the game for their ability to endure the double penalty playing such an underpowered class. Those guys were the real heros, not the superstar clerics who got their butts kissed 24/7.

If you had fun to play your human SK, you probably belong to a small minority, but it shows your deep love for the game. The latter is something we share.

[Krones]

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

That type of 'armchair development' is exactly the type of person you don't want in beta. Do you see the type of suggestions those drool-cup wearing douches post? Vanguard should have permanent death upon death. Tradeskills should require you to press 10000 buttans before the window even opens. Maps shouldn't show where you are, where your party is, where the zone is. The job of a beta player is not to tell a dev how to design his game, it is for you to test the game a developer made and tell him what parts are not fun/not working. You are not asked to come in beta to give advice.

Each creation process is different, the dynamisms, the mechanics, the budget, the myriad of fucking factors.

World of Warcraft was astoundingly refreshing and immensely enjoyable even in the earliest testing phases. The (pve) mechanics were sound and simplified, most of the development focus was on general content implementation, as if these amazing authors came together and were writing an interactive novel. Vanguard is a different beast; parley, complex crafting, reactionary combat elements, foundations that may not seem very inventive on paper, but it's all about the fucking implementation before that story can become fully fluid, the spine of the book.

Advanced game mechanics are going to be fucked up and buggy in early development stages and that's what most of this pessimistic conjecture is spewing from, a lot can change in the next six months, inventive concepts will always require a shit load of fine-tuning and polish, the average random pickup tester who has been playing WoW or EQ2 the last year aren’t going to last in Vanguard and that’s where the majority of these testers have been the past year, the early numbers already prove this.

Enthusiasts whom delve into game design and plot out even the most fucked up ideas and suggestions you or anyone else may not agree with make better game testers than random pickups because they have a passion and an innate understanding of what would be required of their skillset if they were to be selected. Vanguard fucking needed a different breed of tester, some were picked, but not enough.

I think the current state would have turned out differently and the impact would have been for the greater, we will never know, Vanguard's next big test will come during the next beta influx and those interested will be watching. I still think a lot of shit is fucked up with Vanguard and anyone who recognizes me, knows I’ve indulged in my fair share of tirades against McQuaid’s demagogy and some of Vanguard's proposed tenets, but I wanted to provide a different perspective instead of the constant waaah, waaah emo crybaby diarrheic I continually see spewed on these forums.

[Neric]

Hands down, you cannot develop a game together with the playerbase. You can pick up ideas and get a feeling for what they want, but that's about it. There is way too much contradicting stuff and way too much bullshit around to take every suggestion serious.

What you shouldn't do though is to give your playerbase a false security of being listened to while in reality you ignore them completely. It seems to me that this is the feeling that the previous poster wanted to express. It doesn't even matter if it was objectively the case or not. Customers should never get the feeling of being treated like donkeys.

In the end it all comes down to selection. Your motives might be high, but if you select the wrong people to listen to, then you have to live with the consequences. In this case the customers and ultimately Microsoft will have to live with the feeling of another wasted chance. Don't worry, Brad and his folks will get their salary nevertheless.

The funny thing will be to watch the Microsoft executives battle it out in their meetings. "We blew tons of money with Asheron's Call and it didn't work, then we hired the Everquest dude and again wasted millions for nothing. WTF are we doing wrong??"

It seems to me that the "solution" has a market price and one shouldn't share it on open message boards. So be careful with your answers

[redav]

Originally Posted by Neric

The funny thing will be to watch the Microsoft executives battle it out in their meetings.

Are these meetings being held in your imagination?

[Neric]

Originally Posted by redav

Are these meetings being held in your imagination?

Do you honestly expect them not to discuss the result of their investment?

[redav]

Originally Posted by Neric

Do you honestly expect them not to discuss the result of their investment?

Was just wondering if you were speaking out your mouth or your ass.

Like should anyone value your posts or should we consider that you might sit around with your eyes closed, panting heavily, chuckling at some future fantasy meeting where Smed is delivering you donuts to eat while faceless microsoft employees argue vanguard vs neric and xbox vs playstation.

[Neric]

Originally Posted by redav

Was just wondering if you were speaking out your mouth or your ass.

I did just the opposite to what you are doing now. Take a guess...

[Remfin]

Originally Posted by Neric

Do you honestly expect them not to discuss the result of their investment?

There's a lot of shit you can say about Microsoft but cutting things just cause they don't turn a profit isn't one of them. Finally putting a bullet in a game that was going nowhere, period, is quite different than running deficits for things that still have a chance to pay off (cough Xbox cough...well most everything but Windows/Office really)

[Digo]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

There's a potential hilarity there that needs to be tapped more then the guild names for the Africa MMO.

If that game ever sees release, their GM department is going to have a meltdown.

[Gamblor]

Originally Posted by Duppin

but he won't, and I don't expect him to, answer questions like "why did you sign a player who beat his wife and who thinks that dinosaurs are faked by the scientific community?" (this is a hint for those of you who follow baseball)

Don't forget about the moon landing he thinks was faked!

He and his wife got busted for beating their kids, not for him beating her. To the point that they have yet to regain custody of their daughter from grandma, 9 years afterward.




As for Vanguard, only having 2.5% of your population online at peak hours is less than promising, but it's also a self sustaining low population feedback loop when you have a game with little to no soloing capabilities. Nobody is online to play with so you have nobody to group with so you log off. TLC even takes out the option of farming for gear for a twink, not that recommended levels or whatever anti-twinking measures they've taken would have made twinking worthwhile anyway.