Another lead designer leaves sigil.

[Zehn - Vhex]

As for our community, people get to talk to Devs here, and people have gotten really cool jobs here, and those people make better games, which is something we all want.

And for the record, I'd just like to state I find this humorus as 4 forums down the leading topic is, "Would you eat a girls asshole?"

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Darph

You really need to learn how to hold a civilized conversation, you sound like a kid with his fingers in his ears screaming “I CANT HEAR YOU.”

Coming from a guy whose only reply to me was to alter a custom title.

The ONLY reason you post these ridiculous things is to get attention because a dev is here.

Brad replied to my post. Not the other way around. And the same damn thing happened with Smedley. I don't post to get attention. I could give two fucks about attention over the internet via anonymous D&D names on a gaming forum.

Ass kissing? I put my money where my mouth is and quit EQ when I encountered Inner Acrylia, and do you remember when FoH quit? I do, and I’m sure EQ guys do. I also quit SWG after 2 months because it was really bad, and have no problems with pointing out the flaws, but not 3 years later just to spite someone who worked on it.

When someone comes in and says they believe in releasing finished product, with a track record that says they do not, you're damn right I'll point it out until they prove they are capable of practicing what they preach. I don't care if the example I use is 4 years ago, or last week. Unfortunately, if I really wanted to get down and dirty, the last EQ expansion that involved McQuaid was Luclin. But even I know better than to blame him for that, as it was a result of poor producing. Until then, there has been one product he has been involved in. EQ. Most of which was buggy as shit throughout, with unfinished expansions, whether you want to see it or not.

Trying to burn ex-EQ devs over Velious is just proof of your endless retardation.

See above. That's why it's a valid point.

Brad’s promised us a complete and finished product, try to have some faith.

Have faith? Are you fucking kidding? Everyone who has been involved with this genre has been having faith for the last 6 years, and look at the shit that continued to get pumped out. Faith my ass. Faith belongs to the deaf fanboy's over on the IGN forums who cannot grasp reality. Faith has no more bearing at this point until someone can prove they can come out with a decent product for once.

Originally Posted by Ceefo

Again.. you haven't the slightest bit of info as to why these two people left Sigil. You're simply making assumptions based upon what? Nothing. Conjecture.

It's called totality of the circumstances mixed with common sense.

Originally Posted by Brad

If that is your goal, that MMOGs stop being pushed out the door too early, that publishers become aware of the dangers of doing this, that's fine. If you are also generally speaking out against MMOG designers who have in the past promised too much or not managed expectations, that's fine too.

That has always been my goal. As most of my IGN to FoH forum mentality converts will flame me for. My personal crusade. To see a fully fleshed out, functional, feature complete MMORPG released in where a live team will be addressing bugs and additional content, an expansion team making an expansion, period.

Not watching as a game is released a year too early as the customer gets bent over yet again in subscription revenue, finishing what should have already been finished, while a live team doesn't have time to address snowballing bugs, and the expansion team is already full at work on an expansion instead of relating key information to the current live team on what needs to be fixed.

What I don't get is the misinformation and the 'preemptive' strike on Vanguard. We've always been against rushing things, pro a long beta, being very upfront with the playerbase, big on managing expectations, open and up front about what might not make it in the game, etc.

And in this case I heard the opposite from several beta testers that were NOT disenchanted with the game, but rather giving me their opinion. They told me that features they were looking forward to were told to them on the beta boards they would not make release. That also included underwater dungeons, housing methods, and other previously hyped features. You came here and informed me differently. If that is truly the case, then I am all for it.

As long as you have a way of communicating to the player base effectively that features that are not going to be in the game before retail, (preferably a decent amount of time -- around a month or so) so those people can make an informed decision on if they want to wait a couple months to purchase said game until the features they were looking forward to are implemented without them having to pay subscription revenue to do so, I am all for it. If those cut features get hid under an NDA ala SWG beta, that's where I'll speak out.

I know, and fully realize, that Microsoft is probably one of the best publishers to work with in the business. However, with that said, it is evident with the release of Asheron's Call 2 that they also have a track record for not caring about releasing half assed product if it doesn't meet a deadline. Hopefully with the numbers put up by Blizzard, they will give you the time you need.

[Zarcath]

I heard Brad didn't finish an art project when he was in kindergarden and I will continue to use that as a point of reference for all future projects he works on.

Personally, Brad said ages ago on flameplay that while he'd love to implement pointy hats, they just looked silly in EQ's engine. He has no excuse now and that will be my making/breaking point. WoW has upped the bar with pointy hats.

I put on my wizard's robe and hat.

And for the record, I'd just like to state I find this humorus as 4 forums down the leading topic is, "Would you eat a girls asshole?"

We can't be held responsible for the FoHSS community.

[Tancred]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

My personal crusade. To see a fully fleshed out, functional, feature complete MMORPG released in where a live team will be addressing bugs and additional content

You realise you just contradicted yourself and unreasonable ranting about "bugs and additional content" is PRECISELY what causes the "OMG THX PAYED BETA UNFINISHED POS" aneurysms?

Bitches will bitch no matter what a company does. Even those bankrolled by the bottomless pockets of MS will at one point or another mention something that, for prefectly understandable reasons, doesn't make it into the release-day version. The only way to prevent it is to say nothing at all to the puble before release and have a totally closed testing period with only 100% trustworthy testers. Obviously impossible.

A bit of perspective is all that's needed. Given that an MMO will never, ever launch in a perfect state we as the audience have to define what is acceptable within these realistic parameters. We've been fed crap before (SWG) but not often. Other games have required unforeseen changes after launch. But ragging on developers and designers is just stupid as these are the guys that would love nothing more than to put out perfect product. It breaks our hearts to send our projects out knowing that "just another month" (incidentally - try taking a guess at VG's monthly payroll and you'll see the kind of burn-rate that needs sustaining pre-release) could have made a noticable difference but commercial pressures are immutable and out it goes. . .

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Oloh

First and foremost, all the posts above by beta testers break the NDA. I know because I wrote it.

Hey buddy, how about you explain to us exactly the purpose of the NDA. I think this would be very helpful.

The NDA is there to:
A. cover up that the game is crap
B. prevent the competition from stealing ideas
C. ?

Let's say for idealistic reasons that it ain't A, then people can post that the game is crap without breaking the NDA, right?

Things like a NDA are always double edged. Bad people break it and post bad things about the game - bad people always write bad things, you know. Good people won't break it and therefore cannot write good things about the game.

OMG it's a loss/loss-situation!!!! That's so unfair

I suggest to drop the NDA so that the good people can write how good the game really is. This could be such a great way to fire up the hype and you shouldn't miss out on this wonderful chance.

Originally Posted by Oloh

The game has not radically changed. I have been playing it since day one and it just hasn't.

Ack, you shouldn't have said that...

[Remfin]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Personally, Brad said ages ago on flameplay that while he'd love to implement pointy hats, they just looked silly in EQ's engine. He has no excuse now and that will be my making/breaking point. WoW has upped the bar with pointy hats.

I'm afraid FFXI shit all over WoW with it's pointy hats sir!

Or are all the kids still sucking up to Furor by continuing his idiotic claim that all FFXI players are closet homos, since evidentally he never found a tunic or pants and ran around naked all day?

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

As for Froglocks, sorry man, no froggies in VG.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

You exhibit a fundamental misunderstanding here between implementing a system and then later tweaking it based on feedback from beta and completely starting from scratch and throwing out everything that existed before. It seems as if there is no in-between for you, that a system is either implemented perfectly the first time or if that fails, a completely new system must be created from scratch to replace the old. This is patently false.

I'd say he is just wondering what you were doing for the last couple of years. My own expectation would have been similar, because I simply gave you credit for coming up with "something" and not trying to build the whole game "on the fly" during Beta. After years of "thinking" you finally came out of your shell and what do you have to show? A totally unfinished product that needs major tweaks in every single area. You should probably rename your Beta into Concept Stage Alpha 0.08.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by Neric

I'd say he is just wondering what you were doing for the last couple of years. My own expectation would have been similar, because I simply gave you credit for coming up with "something" and not trying to build the whole game "on the fly" during Beta. After years of "thinking" you finally came out of your shell and what do you have to show? A totally unfinished product that needs major tweaks in every single area. You should probably rename your Beta into Concept Stage Alpha 0.08.

OMG, an unreleased game that is unfinished!!!!!

[Moontayle]

Originally Posted by Faille

OMG, an unreleased game that is unfinished!!!!!

Perish the thought.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Neric

I'd say he is just wondering what you were doing for the last couple of years. My own expectation would have been similar, because I simply gave you credit for coming up with "something" and not trying to build the whole game "on the fly" during Beta. After years of "thinking" you finally came out of your shell and what do you have to show? A totally unfinished product that needs major tweaks in every single area. You should probably rename your Beta into Concept Stage Alpha 0.08.

You also don't seem to understand how MMOGs are built from the planning stage on up to prototype, beta, testing, and then release. Or, more likely, this is true and you're also trolling now that I've responded to this other person, excited by the possibility that a dev might finally respond to you directly.

In any case, we're not building the game on the fly during beta, we're tweaking it and using a beta for what it's for -- gathering data and feedback and making those tweaks using data that can only be obtained from people actually trying out systems, experiencing content, and testing the game (a fundamental truth about MMOGs since they are so complex and there are so many systems that must be tested at the same time by many people (a number that far exceeds what internal testing can accomodate) to see how they work with one another).

We don't need tweaks in 'every' area, and given how long we've been in development, we've certainly taken less time to get how far we have (of which you know very little, not working here, nor being a tester) relative to our competitors and for a lot less money too. Why? Because we've used our experience in the past making these games to be more efficient, to implement a production methodology that is iterative and that makes sense, and because we know what a beta is for and why a long period of beta testing as opposed to staying too long in a pure development phase and then rushing through a beta period at the very end, starting it later as opposed to earlier, is a far superior approach to MMOG game development in general.

As for NDAs which you apparently also don't understand as per your response to Oloh above, I'll leave it to him to try to explain to you if he, by some strange chance, is also in the mood to feed trolls like I am this evening

[MaximusDrake]

Originally Posted by Neric

I'd say he is just wondering what you were doing for the last couple of years. My own expectation would have been similar, because I simply gave you credit for coming up with "something" and not trying to build the whole game "on the fly" during Beta. After years of "thinking" you finally came out of your shell and what do you have to show? A totally unfinished product that needs major tweaks in every single area. You should probably rename your Beta into Concept Stage Alpha 0.08.

Man are you a complete and utter fucking moron? I swear, some of the retards that are allowed access to the internet these days. Learn a thing or two about beta testing before you go off spewing crap from your mouth that doesn't make a lick of logical sense.

A game that is in testing and a little over half a year from release is an unfinished product? You must be the 21st century reincarnation of Sherlock Holmes, genius.

[The Hiram Key]

If UT is not on Sigil's payroll...he should be.

Brad: "Ok UT, your mission is to talk shit non-stop about my game and start a jihad and get everyone riled up. My job is to come and debate you"

In the end, regardless of all this hot air, we are all talking (and thinking) about Vanguard.

Mission = success.

[Yaguex]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

you're also trolling now that I've responded to this other person, excited by the possibility that a dev might finally respond to you directly.

...

I'll leave it to him to try to explain to you if he, by some strange chance, is also in the mood to feed trolls like I am these evening

Holy shit, Brad is in berserker mode today




Yag.

[Tetrian]

rawr!

Nice to see you slackers around - necro fuckers