Another lead designer leaves sigil.

[Digits]

It's time for the collective mind of Sigil to realize that attemping to 'debate' Utnayan is like trying to gain sexual pleasure by laying your dick on a railroad track and waiting for a train. Oh, sure, something is gonna fucking happen but it sure as hell won't be what you originally wanted.

No one gives a shit about your crusade against whatever boogeyman you set up for yourself to tackle ad naseum, Ut. Wow, you sure are fighting for the people! Look at all those pms! All that beta info! The dev responses! You're such a champion of the people that, quite frankly, my dick just exploded in awe of you.

[Frax]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Not being "done" because you're adding new content is a good thing. Not being "done" because you're still fixing broken stuff 3 months after release is bull. Dev's like to use the former to justify the latter alot unfortunately with statements like, "Well...you're never truely really done..."

That statement is nearly as bad as "We're happy with how things are going but as always there's room for improvement" line.

What game has come out and NOT had problems three months later that people were complaining about in beta?

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Frax

What game has come out and NOT had problems three months later that people were complaining about in beta?

That's the whole point. It needs to stop. (In regards to a tremendous amount of bugs, or unfinished content rearing it's head on release day because the publisher decided to pull the trigger too soon to meet a fiscal quarterly goal)

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Darph

This shit got old last time, do you need us to lock a special little retard tag as your avatar so that everyone knows you ride the short bus?

You have no idea how happy this would make me.

[elrich]

That's the whole point. It needs to stop. (In regards to a tremendous amount of bugs, or unfinished content rearing it's head on release day because the publisher decided to pull the trigger too soon to meet a fiscal quarterly goal)

Ya, and those 'periodic leaks' are really helping. Fuck, WoW dropped their NDA very early, and the exact same shit happened. Seriously fucking drop this shit. You aren't following some righteous cause, you aren't on some mission to save the MMO community.

like trying to gain sexual pleasure by laying your dick on a railroad track and waiting for a train. Oh, sure, something is gonna fucking happen but it sure as hell won't be what you originally wanted.

Pure Amazingtude.

[splok]

Those NDA's pretty much would say that you cannot, under any reasonable circumstances, acknowledge you are even in the beta (even indirectly)

Well, consider that it was publicly stated that everyone who went to Fanguard would get a beta spot and also that the list of attendees was public... Now, consider some of the relatively rabid fanboys who went to fanguard, and then look at their level of rabidness now...

Shouldn't being in a beta that you enjoy, that excites you, and that exceedes your expectations make you an even more rabid fanboy? I would think so. You don't have to have positive NDA breakers to defend the game from negative NDA breakers... Just look to the relative fanboyness for the answer.

[Ceefo]

In order to get into the beta, you have to sign an NDA, which is a contract. Legal and binding. The penalties for breaking this contract can go far beyond simply 'no more beta' as some people have so flippantly surmised. Whether or not anything like that happens.. I have no idea.

Utnayan, you keep talking about how features are going to be cut so things can be shoved out the door and so forth. Please.. Tell me.. What is Vanguard's release date? Do you know? Because nothing has been announced. Nothing. So basically all you're doing is screaming and ranting about things you know exactly ZERO about.

Then take that with two of the most valuable designers you had gone like a fart in the wind, one of which was responsible for the coolest quest EQ ever had, another for some of the best zones and storyline content ever created, one can only wonder what in the fuck is going on.

Again.. you haven't the slightest bit of info as to why these two people left Sigil. You're simply making assumptions based upon what? Nothing. Conjecture.

[Darph]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

My advice is quit kissing ass and speak your mind.

You really need to learn how to hold a civilized conversation, you sound like a kid with his fingers in his ears screaming “I CANT HEAR YOU.”

Your arguments are stupid and flawed. If you made any sense, did it in a way that wasn’t caustic, and you actually sounded remotely intelligent, we’d have no problem with you saying whatever you wanted to say. The ONLY reason you post these ridiculous things is to get attention because a dev is here.

As for our community, people get to talk to Devs here, and people have gotten really cool jobs here, and those people make better games, which is something we all want.

It’s encouraged that people talk to and even challenge Devs, however, what you’re doing isn’t remotely constructive or informative, you’re just a flamer, nothing more, everything is negative and spiteful.

Ass kissing? I put my money where my mouth is and quit EQ when I encountered Inner Acrylia, and do you remember when FoH quit? I do, and I’m sure EQ guys do. I also quit SWG after 2 months because it was really bad, and have no problems with pointing out the flaws, but not 3 years later just to spite someone who worked on it.

Trying to burn ex-EQ devs over Velious is just proof of your endless retardation. It was easily the best expansion I’ve ever played in an MMO, and this was what? 3/4 years ago at least? Brad’s promised us a complete and finished product, try to have some faith. The game’s in beta for another half of a year.

[Gnome Eater]

Ut, I will repeat this once more, this is idiotic. The only people who don't care and can speak up are assholes who don't mind breaking an NDA on a public board.

Developers have to be a lot more measured in their use of words, and cannot properly flame and retort - though a developer version of John Precott would be hilarious.

There are tons of players in beta - who knows why they are not playing? Technical issues perhaps? Someone on live boards noticed a switch to fileplanet, surely that will cause issues for a few people. Some people plain do not have fun with a game in beta. The vanguard public boards as well (no offense Brad) are a paragorn of stupidity, and I feel sorry for Cindy Bowens who actually has to read that gaggle of mouth breathing retards.

I have played Oblivion, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Baldur's Gate - and I still stand by my point of view. I might be alone in this, but all I want is to be able to crawl awesome looking dungeons with good friends in a flexible group make up, and improve my character. I don't care about tradeskills. I don't care about diplomacy, etc - those features mean nothing to me, but once again, I am sure others differ on this.

This is an entirely unfair fight, because you are allowed to keep throwing punches and accusations, the people who do have a mind to speak are not allowed to, and Brad cannot properly reply since every word he says is going to be used and he is going to be held for - you on the other hand are just another poster. While you do have intelligent things to say, surely you will understand how hypocritical that is? Velious itself was nearly a complete expansion at release, it was probably the most complete an expansion has ever been in a MMORPG.

After all this defending, I do want to add one thing. If, by the time the NDA is lifted and the reports of reliable people start coming in, we hear that the game is not properly tested/content is still incomplete, and the game gets released anyway, I am flat out not going to refuse to buy it. The other factor that would lead to my refusal to buy Vanguard would be LACK OF FROGLOCKS. You hear me Brad? There better be fucking froglocks, look at the dungeon design thread, everyone loves froglocks. If you want to make the game better, remove every single mob model in the game, inport the froglock model from EQ1 (including casting backflip) and replace everything in game with froglocks.

Why do I still have faith no matter what? Because I had fun in EQ, it had some fantastic content and a lot of very fun mechanics that made playing a joy. As long as 'the vision' that made a lot of elements in EQ absolutely sadistic (exp penalty for knights/races, holy trinity, meditation staring at a book, etc) gets tempered, I have no reason to believe the people who made things I enjoy totally forgot how to design an MMORPG.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

That's the whole point. It needs to stop. (In regards to a tremendous amount of bugs, or unfinished content rearing it's head on release day because the publisher decided to pull the trigger too soon to meet a fiscal quarterly goal)

If that is your goal, that MMOGs stop being pushed out the door too early, that publishers become aware of the dangers of doing this, that's fine. If you are also generally speaking out against MMOG designers who have in the past promised too much or not managed expectations, that's fine too.

What I don't get is the misinformation and the 'preemptive' strike on Vanguard. We've always been against rushing things, pro a long beta, being very upfront with the playerbase, big on managing expectations, open and up front about what might not make it in the game, etc.

Your general crusade against these things is one thing and in fact, I'm likely with you on much of the same crusade. But the attack and false accusations re: Vanguard, its beta, where things are at, predicting doom and gloom, asserting things would and would not make it in when you have no way of knowing anything of the sort, etc. is where you lose me and where I feel compelled to step in and expose the misinformation for what it is.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

After all this defending, I do want to add one thing. If, by the time the NDA is lifted and the reports of reliable people start coming in, we hear that the game is not properly tested/content is still incomplete, and the game gets released anyway, I am flat out not going to refuse to buy it.

Fair enough

As for Froglocks, sorry man, no froggies in VG.

[Ceefo]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

As for Froglocks, sorry man, no froggies in VG.

Well.. no Froglocks.. but there ARE the Swamphibian things :-P

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

More stuff

Take his ranting as added incentive to actually make sure the product is finished when released. Really not looking forward to a year/two from now him bumping this thread and saying, "Told you so." He may be a crazed lunatic, but he does have a point. MMO's in general so far don't exactly have a great track record when it comes to QA testing and content releases.

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Ceefo

Utnayan, you keep talking about how features are going to be cut so things can be shoved out the door and so forth. Please.. Tell me.. What is Vanguard's release date? Do you know? Because nothing has been announced. Nothing. So basically all you're doing is screaming and ranting about things you know exactly ZERO about.

Again.. you haven't the slightest bit of info as to why these two people left Sigil. You're simply making assumptions based upon what? Nothing. Conjecture.

He has top secret sources EVERYWHERE. Haven't you been paying attention?

Originally Posted by Vhex

Take his ranting as added incentive to actually make sure the product is finished when released. Really not looking forward to a year/two from now him bumping this thread and saying, "Told you so." He may be a crazed lunatic, but he does have a point. MMO's in general so far don't exactly have a great track record when it comes to QA testing and content releases.

This is true to an extent, but Utnayan being a raving lunatic means that no matter how good Vanguard is when it comes out, he'll find fault with it. So this is going to happen. Brace yourself for it now. "I tried to log on the other day and I went linkdead for five seconds! I AM VINDICATED!"

[Zehn - Vhex]

Personally, Brad said ages ago on flameplay that while he'd love to implement pointy hats, they just looked silly in EQ's engine. He has no excuse now and that will be my making/breaking point. WoW has upped the bar with pointy hats.