leveling

titan_atlas · 03-24-2006, 12:42 PM

Ok I was thinking as we all constantly disagree and fight over leveling curves. Why not make a game where you don't get xp from killing the regular world spawn monster, you get skill ups(ala EQ). But for leveling you get it through dungeon quests. Like a 6 man dungeon takes about 2 hours to crawl and when you kill the final guy that grants you're level up. At higher levels it would change to 12 man and then 20 man dungeons for the level ups. There would still be world spawns for equipment and skill ups. Anyways just a thought, I hate staring at my xp bar. This seems like it would force comunity and grouping while giving reasons to solo sometimes and no real grinding.

Gryzx · 03-24-2006, 12:45 PM

That's sounds sortof like FFXI's level caps, except for every level.

... · 03-24-2006, 12:50 PM

So each dungion is a trial that you have to pass to level, and normal worldspawns serve to gear/skill up your character for the trials?

I never like the 'add more players to make it interesting' trend instead of just making the 6 man dungions more complex/challenging/interesting myself, but the overall idea sounds snazzy.

I'd have to assume the trial dungions themselves would exist in an instance as to prevent perma-cockblocking people below X level.

... · 03-24-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gryzx

That's sounds sortof like FFXI's level caps, except for every level.

I guess the diference would be no grind. just gear up, skill up, get good enough for the trial and have at it. twinking would win the game though.

Reolien01 · 03-24-2006, 12:50 PM

This is the worst thread in FoH history. Log out plz

Cad · 03-24-2006, 12:52 PM

I guess thats a bit more explicit fuck-you to people who don't want to raid than current games...

I'm all for adding multiple ways to progress rather than just gear, though.

Gryzx · 03-24-2006, 12:54 PM

If the trials were sufficiently hard enough that they required you to get the gear, and the gear was sufficiently rare enough and bind on pickup then it's still a grind except it's like the grind at 60 that people get bored of in WoW.

I doubt it would go over well with a random drop mechanic on gear. You would have people stuck at levels through no fault of their own except being unlucky with the random number generator.

... · 03-24-2006, 01:04 PM

they could do EQ2 style strings of kill X quests, that way it's not tied to a random drop rate. Though I bet no matter how you slice it, a grind is still a grind.

The only mmo I've played without a hardcore grind is guildwars, and it just requires you to take the time to seek out the skills for a build you want. GW hasn't taken the world by storm yet though, but I'm not sure if thats due to the low-grind, or the diabloesque lack of 'a world' with the pure instance-ness of it.

Fadaar · 03-24-2006, 01:06 PM

I don't like it because I don't like having to rely on other people to level.

Gryzx · 03-24-2006, 01:06 PM

Haven't played GW's since it was in beta, but I think a game that didn't have levels at all but just items would be interesting. Sortof like secret of mana or legend of zelda, except mmo style.

Fammaden · 03-24-2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cad

I guess thats a bit more explicit fuck-you to people who don't want to raid than current games...

I'm all for adding multiple ways to progress rather than just gear, though.

The final limit break in FFXI was for some classes one of the most challenging things they ever had to do in game and you were 100% on your own against it. There were some multi group limit breaks leading up to it, but for the most part you didn't "raid" in that game in the same sense as you do in WoW or EQ.

But yes, there should be more rites of passage in general. And I don't mean Warlord's Command for your twink's Onyx key. I mean fun shit that involves learning significant facts about how to play your character.

Vinen · 03-24-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fammaden

The final limit break in FFXI was for some classes one of the most challenging things they ever had to do in game and you were 100% on your own against it. There were some multi group limit breaks leading up to it, but for the most part you didn't "raid" in that game in the same sense as you do in WoW or EQ.

But yes, there should be more rites of passage in general. And I don't mean Warlord's Command for your twink's Onyx key. I mean fun shit that involves learning significant facts about how to play your character.

Red Mage =/, easy now though with certain gear being a lot more affordable
-.-.. fucking sucked.. took 9 attempts but beating it finally felt like an incredible accomplishment.

I am all for road blocks you have to pass in order to level.

Praetor · 03-24-2006, 01:28 PM

Yeah, I've had a lot of thoughts along these lines as well, in the course of contemplating the item-based endgame of WoW.

When my group clears out the ruins of Zul'Farrak, I may come away with a nice toy or two, but the very experience of doing it makes my character stronger. I'll come out with a bit more health and mana, I'll fare better against some foes that used to be hard to hit, I'll gain a bit more insight into how to maximize the use of my skills, etc.

But when I kill Onyxia, or clear the entirety of Nefarian's lair, I walk out precisely the same as I came in, unless I happened to get any new gear. Why?

Obviously true open-ended progression has all sorts of pitfalls, and characters can't just keep getting indefinitely stronger. You need a level cap or some other sort of cap. But why the need for a rigid bright-line division between the realm of "everything gives you exp and that's how you advance; gear helps a little" and "nothing give you exp; gear is everything."

Why not have inherent pseudo-experience rewards for overcoming various PvE obstacles. What if the very act of killing Onyxia for the first time as a hunter revealed some insight into weak spots between a dragon's scales, and permanently increase damage vs. dragonkin by 5%? No need to grind, or run the zone 50 times hoping for a drop, but just some simple, tangible benefit for accomplishing something. Maybe managing to survive Ragnaros and the heart of the Molten Core permanently toughens your skin against fire damage, and you get an innate +10 or +15 FR. Stuff like that. Not gamebreaking, not the primary vehicle for advancement by any means, but something.

Anyway, just brainstorming. I definitely think there's untapped potential for a feat-based advancement system, and it's one of my pet ideas for how hero classes might work some day. Something other than just numerical experience or shiny loot is always nice.

Digo · 03-24-2006, 01:31 PM

Let me get this straight. You want only skill-grinding in the overworld. You want only level-grinding in dungeons. Notice the recurring, operative word "grinding?"

MMOGs are founded upon grinding. It is the basis of subscriptions and character power inflation. Stop trying to find a way to eliminate the mechanic and start thinking of ways to make the mechanic invisible, or nearly transparent. WoW is a good example of successfully hiding the grind.

QuestGiver: There's a bunch of giant wolves eating all my sheep up in the hills. If we don't stop them, the town will starve for the winter. Bring me wolf pelts and the town will reward you with what meagre supplies we have.

Guess what. You're still going to grind. But with fun play mechanics, good art, and a decent story, you won't notice it as much.

===
edit: Re Gurgthock's post.

You're talking about Alternate Advancement points (AAs) ala Everquest. This was a decent timesink and method of giving players ongoing power inflation. However, the deluge of balance issues it opens up....

-- All future content must be balanced around these AA's and gear improvement. Obviously, game balance is one of the hardest things to do. Adding hundreds of different AA abilities and combinations of character power inflation only makes it more difficult. You did Onyxia with 10 people in tier 2 gear. Imagine if you had AAs too.

-- If the game involves PVP, AAs become even more precarious. Think of how ulcer-inducing it must be for the class designers to balance PVE with PVP now. Now add AAs to the mix.

AAs aren't necessarily a bad thing. They make a nice carrot, but come with a high price and migraine headache for the designers.

Soygen · 03-24-2006, 01:42 PM

Blowjobs during gameplay would probably hide the grind pretty well.

03-24-2006, 12:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
titan_atlas Manwhore Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 423 -1 Internets	leveling Ok I was thinking as we all constantly disagree and fight over leveling curves. Why not make a game where you don't get xp from killing the regular world spawn monster, you get skill ups(ala EQ). But for leveling you get it through dungeon quests. Like a 6 man dungeon takes about 2 hours to crawl and when you kill the final guy that grants you're level up. At higher levels it would change to 12 man and then 20 man dungeons for the level ups. There would still be world spawns for equipment and skill ups. Anyways just a thought, I hate staring at my xp bar. This seems like it would force comunity and grouping while giving reasons to solo sometimes and no real grinding.

03-24-2006, 01:06 PM	#9 (permalink)
Fadaar Detective Fox Mulder Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 2,611	I don't like it because I don't like having to rely on other people to level. __________________

03-24-2006, 01:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
Praetor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 427 +2 Internets	Yeah, I've had a lot of thoughts along these lines as well, in the course of contemplating the item-based endgame of WoW. When my group clears out the ruins of Zul'Farrak, I may come away with a nice toy or two, but the very experience of doing it makes my character stronger. I'll come out with a bit more health and mana, I'll fare better against some foes that used to be hard to hit, I'll gain a bit more insight into how to maximize the use of my skills, etc. But when I kill Onyxia, or clear the entirety of Nefarian's lair, I walk out precisely the same as I came in, unless I happened to get any new gear. Why? Obviously true open-ended progression has all sorts of pitfalls, and characters can't just keep getting indefinitely stronger. You need a level cap or some other sort of cap. But why the need for a rigid bright-line division between the realm of "everything gives you exp and that's how you advance; gear helps a little" and "nothing give you exp; gear is everything." Why not have inherent pseudo-experience rewards for overcoming various PvE obstacles. What if the very act of killing Onyxia for the first time as a hunter revealed some insight into weak spots between a dragon's scales, and permanently increase damage vs. dragonkin by 5%? No need to grind, or run the zone 50 times hoping for a drop, but just some simple, tangible benefit for accomplishing something. Maybe managing to survive Ragnaros and the heart of the Molten Core permanently toughens your skin against fire damage, and you get an innate +10 or +15 FR. Stuff like that. Not gamebreaking, not the primary vehicle for advancement by any means, but something. Anyway, just brainstorming. I definitely think there's untapped potential for a feat-based advancement system, and it's one of my pet ideas for how hero classes might work some day. Something other than just numerical experience or shiny loot is always nice. __________________ Gurgthock, Elitist Jerks (Mal'Ganis)

03-24-2006, 01:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
Digo Ad Hoc Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,215 -1 Internets	Let me get this straight. You want only skill-grinding in the overworld. You want only level-grinding in dungeons. Notice the recurring, operative word "grinding?" MMOGs are founded upon grinding. It is the basis of subscriptions and character power inflation. Stop trying to find a way to eliminate the mechanic and start thinking of ways to make the mechanic invisible, or nearly transparent. WoW is a good example of successfully hiding the grind. QuestGiver: There's a bunch of giant wolves eating all my sheep up in the hills. If we don't stop them, the town will starve for the winter. Bring me wolf pelts and the town will reward you with what meagre supplies we have. Guess what. You're still going to grind. But with fun play mechanics, good art, and a decent story, you won't notice it as much. === edit: Re Gurgthock's post. You're talking about Alternate Advancement points (AAs) ala Everquest. This was a decent timesink and method of giving players ongoing power inflation. However, the deluge of balance issues it opens up.... -- All future content must be balanced around these AA's and gear improvement. Obviously, game balance is one of the hardest things to do. Adding hundreds of different AA abilities and combinations of character power inflation only makes it more difficult. You did Onyxia with 10 people in tier 2 gear. Imagine if you had AAs too. -- If the game involves PVP, AAs become even more precarious. Think of how ulcer-inducing it must be for the class designers to balance PVE with PVP now. Now add AAs to the mix. AAs aren't necessarily a bad thing. They make a nice carrot, but come with a high price and migraine headache for the designers. __________________ casual Last edited by Digo; 03-24-2006 at 01:43 PM..

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03-24-2006, 12:45 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gryzx Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 529 +0 Internets	That's sounds sortof like FFXI's level caps, except for every level.

03-24-2006, 12:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
... Avatar won't work. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ... Posts: 1,914 +1 Internets	So each dungion is a trial that you have to pass to level, and normal worldspawns serve to gear/skill up your character for the trials? I never like the 'add more players to make it interesting' trend instead of just making the 6 man dungions more complex/challenging/interesting myself, but the overall idea sounds snazzy. I'd have to assume the trial dungions themselves would exist in an instance as to prevent perma-cockblocking people below X level.

03-24-2006, 12:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
Reolien01 Testicles Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 584 +0 Internets	This is the worst thread in FoH history. Log out plz

03-24-2006, 12:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
Cad Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 6,677 -37 Internets	I guess thats a bit more explicit fuck-you to people who don't want to raid than current games... I'm all for adding multiple ways to progress rather than just gear, though.

03-24-2006, 12:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
Gryzx Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 529 +0 Internets	If the trials were sufficiently hard enough that they required you to get the gear, and the gear was sufficiently rare enough and bind on pickup then it's still a grind except it's like the grind at 60 that people get bored of in WoW. I doubt it would go over well with a random drop mechanic on gear. You would have people stuck at levels through no fault of their own except being unlucky with the random number generator.

03-24-2006, 01:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
... Avatar won't work. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ... Posts: 1,914 +1 Internets	they could do EQ2 style strings of kill X quests, that way it's not tied to a random drop rate. Though I bet no matter how you slice it, a grind is still a grind. The only mmo I've played without a hardcore grind is guildwars, and it just requires you to take the time to seek out the skills for a build you want. GW hasn't taken the world by storm yet though, but I'm not sure if thats due to the low-grind, or the diabloesque lack of 'a world' with the pure instance-ness of it.

03-24-2006, 01:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
Gryzx Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 529 +0 Internets	Haven't played GW's since it was in beta, but I think a game that didn't have levels at all but just items would be interesting. Sortof like secret of mana or legend of zelda, except mmo style.

03-24-2006, 01:42 PM	#15 (permalink)
Soygen 100% Pure Soy Monk Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 7,448 +107 Internets	Blowjobs during gameplay would probably hide the grind pretty well.